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Author Topic: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.  (Read 15351 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Since you'll undoubtedly ignore that article so that you can persist in distorting His Grace Archbishop Lefebvre's ACTUAL position, allow me ...


Quote
Did he frequently and respectfully allude to the sedevacantist explanation of the crisis?

1. “To whatever extent the pope departed from…tradition he would become schismatic, he would breach with the Church. Theologians such as Saint Bellarmine, Cajetan, Cardinal Journet and many others have studied this possibility. So it is not something inconceivable.” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)


2. “Heresy, schism, ipso facto excommunication, invalidity of election are so many reasons why a pope might in fact never have been pope or might no longer be one. In this, obviously very exceptional case, the Church would be in a situation similar to that which prevails after the death of a Pontiff.” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)


3. “…these recent acts of the Pope and bishops, with protestants, Animists and Jews, are they not an active participation in non-catholic worship as explained by Canon Naz on Canon 1258§1? In which case I cannot see how it is possible to say that the pope is not suspect of heresy, and if he continues, he is a heretic, a public heretic. That is the teaching of the Church.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)


4. “It seems inconceivable that a successor of Peter could fail in some way to transmit the Truth which he must transmit, for he cannot – without as it were disappearing from the papal line – not transmit what the popes have always transmitted.” (Homily, Ecône, September 18, 1977)


5. “If it happened that the pope was no longer the servant of the truth, he would no longer be pope.” (Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000)


Did he consider sedevacantists to be upright members of the Church?


Undoubtedly. He rebuked certain over-zealous Society priests who refused the sacraments to sedevacantists. He collaborated with Bishop de Castro-Mayer after the Brazilian prelate had made his sedevacantism quite clear. He accepted numerous seminarians from sedevacantist families, parishes or groups. He patronised the Le Trévoux “Ordo” with its guide to traditional places of worship throughout the world, which has always included (and still does) certain known sedevacantist Mass centres. He was at all times well aware of the presence of sedevacantists among the Society’s priests.


Did he avow that his persevering recognition of Paul VI and John-Paul II was due more to heroically cautious hesitation than to any solid conviction?


1. “While we are certain that the faith the Church has taught for 20 centuries cannot contain error, we are much further from absolute certitude that the pope is truly pope.” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)


2. “It is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope. For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, published in The Angelus, July 1986)


3. “I don’t know if the time has come to say that the pope is a heretic (…) Perhaps after this famous meeting of Assisi, perhaps we must say that the pope is a heretic, is apostate. Now I don’t wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a pope to be formally and publicly heretical. (…) So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)


Did he envisage declaring the legal vacancy of the Holy See if the situation continued unchanged?


1. “That is why I beseech Your Eminence to …do everything in your power to get us a Pope, a true Pope, successor of Peter, in line with his predecessors, the firm and watchful guardian of the deposit of faith. The…eighty-year-old cardinals have a strict right to present themselves at the Conclave, and their enforced absence will necessarily raise the question of the validity of the election” (Letter to an unnamed cardinal, August 8, 1978.)


2. “It is impossible for Rome to remain indefinitely outside Tradition. It’s impossible… For the moment they are in rupture with their predecessors. This is impossible. They are no longer in the Catholic Church.” (Retreat Conference, September 4, 1987, Ecône)


Offline Ladislaus

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Archbishop Lefebvre ... stating that the legitimacy of the V2 Papal Claimants is NOT dogmatic fact:

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“While we are certain that the faith the Church has taught for 20 centuries cannot contain error, we are much further from absolute certitude that the pope is truly pope.” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

End of thread.


Offline Ladislaus

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By the way, even after +Lefebvre demanded that priests PUBLICLY offer Mass una cuм, he continued to tolerate that they hold sedevacantism as a private opinion.

Offline Climacus

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It's sad how many people have warped Catholic ecclesiology in order to justify R&R.  Throw all of Catholic ecclesiology into the dustbin in order to defend the legitimacy of Bergoglio et al.
Dear friend, I am not trying to justify R & R.  I am on the side of truth, regardless of where it lies.  With regard to the gentleman's post, I agreed with everything he wrote because it wasn't "warped Catholic ecclesiology."  I then asked you if you could show us where any of it was in error.  I am absolutely certain you cannot or you would have done so.    

Offline Ladislaus

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With regard to the gentleman's post, I agreed with everything he wrote because it wasn't "warped Catholic ecclesiology."  

We'll agree to disagree.


Offline Ladislaus

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I then asked you if you could show us where any of it was in error.  I am absolutely certain you cannot or you would have done so.    

I didn't do so because Pax had already dismantled his post.  I didn't feel obliged to retype everything he had already posted.  Xavier doesn't even understand the basic terms involved.  Pax is no sedevacantist and yet correctly shredded his post.

Offline 2Vermont

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Yep, to put Bergoglio in there next to that phrases is very difficult to swallow.  Latin is "cultores fidei" ... which means more along the lines of keepers/preservers/fosterers of the faith.
Not only is it hard to swallow, it is objectively a lie.  

Offline Nishant Xavier

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I'm not going to play your game, Ladislaus. If you want an answer from me, first answer my question: I gave you 5 clear proofs from Rome that the SSPX is not in schism. Go back and answer them first, if you want to persist in your false charge. At least acknowledge it.

Second, answer this question - where is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church today? It is the OUM's acceptance that counts and is determinative. Not Siscoe's or mine and certainly not yours. I tell you in charity that you will struggle to save your soul.

You dodge these things because you're afraid to answer and to inquire honestly into the possible resolution of the crisis.

61 year SVism is a lie, is objective heresy, and those who live in it are cut off and deprived from many graces. Ponder carefully your choice, for your life and your eternity could depend on it. You will struggle mightily to obtain final perseverance if you are SVists.

The best way, the surest way, the safest way, the most certain way to Heaven is confess and retract svism and schism and become regularized SSPX or Indult Traditionalists.

This person Ladislaus is like an evolutionist who insists possible small changes within species by natural selection "proves" particles-to-people evolution is possible. After all, they're both called evolution. That's the fallacy of equivocation. 20 year SVism and 61 year SVism have exactly nothing in common, even less than micro-evolution and macro-evolution. That's just a patent fact Svs won't acknowledge.

Third, which Ladislaus again ignored, is the fact that a Bishop being consecrated at 35, appointed by the Pope and granted office and jurisdiction by the Supreme Pontiff, and likewise resigning around 75 years of age proves that sede vacante can't last longer than that.

If "the second I were to come to the conclusion that the V2 Papal Claimants were undoubtedly legitimate, I would make haste to return to full communion with them." were really true, then you should have done that at least 10 years ago, after SP and all. And after more than 40 years of sede vacante had passed.

Once 40 years have passed, at least, as many SSPX articles from Fr. Laisney and Fr. Gleize have pointed out, everyone can be certain that Svism is the wrong explanation. Yes, there probably was incapacitation or worse of Pope Paul VI in the 60s.

"widespread doubt regarding his person" does not apply to a universally accepted Pope, but only one where universal acceptance is lacking. It does not apply to Pope Martin V, but could have applied to his predecessor. If you claimed Pope Pius XII was doubtful, and rejected the dogma of the Assumption, you would have fallen into both schism and even heresy. The same if you claimed Pope Pius IX was doubtful, and joined the Old Catholics in rejecting the dogmas defined at Vatican I.

Fr. C: "By 1982, however, once Lefebvre undertaken another of his periodic bouts of negotiation with the Vatican, he changed his position, apparently under the impression that Paul VI form was used in the Eastern Rites, and therefore unquestionably valid." [note the disrespectful way Cekada speaks of saintly Archbishop Lefebvre, and misrepresents completely the reasons for H. G.'s conclusion]

Fr. Cekada's misrepresentations have been answered by SSPX Priests. Trust Fr. C at your own peril. Father Cekada once said he heard SSPV Priests say of Thuc line Clergy "we can't say they're valid, otherwise people will go there". Again, trust "pastors" like this at the peril of your own souls. Fr. C even admitted Archbishop Lefebvre did not agree with him many times.

This is just a game Fr. Cekada plays - he admits he used to play it before being expelled in 1983 - and you people fall for it.


Offline Stubborn

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for arguement sake I say you are schismatic, you have no real defence....the sede position is superior
For myself, it's sufficient to say that I have no need to defend myself against a false accusation, but for argument's sake, my statement did not denouce the pope as pope at all, whereas schismatics refuse all subjection to the pope as they denounce the pope(s) as the visible head of the Church on earth.  
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Stubborn

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We know God through the Church. The same Church that tells us not to go to the masses of priests without ministry or societies without canonical status. The same Church whose rites cannot be declared impious or unholy under pain of anathema. Yet you're happily willing to ignore all that.
I do not ignore the crisis, I simply do not obsess upon the status of popes. I will be judged on what I did, and on what I ought to have done and did not do.

I know that I ought not decide the status of popes, so in that matter, there will be no judgement against me for doing that which I ought not to have done (decide the status of popes), nor will there be any judgement against me for deciding the status of popes because that is something I did not and do not do.

All I need to do is keep it that way another x  years and that'll be 2 less things I will suffer for.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Pax Vobis

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I'm not going to play your game, Ladislaus. If you want an answer from me, first answer my question: I gave you 5 clear proofs from Rome that the SSPX is not in schism.
Xavier, i've responed to multiple of your posts (in this thread and others) and you never reply, so you're not the only one who avoids issues.

Secondly, the new-sspx is not is schism, but new-rome has made it clear that to attend their masses, which are not allowed by the local bishops (because the sspx lacks jurisdiction), are illicit, therefore sinful.  So if you attend an sspx mass, you commit a sin.  You've yet to explain your contradiction here, which is what Ladislaus has pointed out multiple times.  

On the contrary, Trads who attend an sspx mass (or any other Trad mass) do NOT commit a sin of attending an illicit mass because they believe, rightly, that Quo Primum allows any Trad mass to be licit, forever.  Further, they consider this current Church crisis as an emergency situation, per Canon Law, which allows Trads to attend any mass with a valid priest, jurisdiction being supplied by Canon Law itself, whose highest law is the salvation of souls, and this law overrules all other laws.  The emergency situation being the new mass itself and V2 by extension, which sacrilegiously poses as the True Mass and blasphemously ridicules the True Liturgy.

You, however, accept the new mass as only being a "lesser good", instead of the anti-Trent, anti-Catholic, anti-reverent abomination that it is.  If you accept that the new mass is catholic, then there is no emergency situation in the dioceses, then there is no supplied jurisdiction for Trads/sspx, then the sspx has no reason to exist and their activities are GRAVELY illicit, since they directly oppose the authority of their bishops and the pope himself.  If you attend such a mass, knowing their illicit stance, knowing that you have access to multiple masses in your diocese (latin or english), then you sin GRAVELY by supporting ALL their activities, since you are promoting known usurpers of church authority, which is a schismatic mindset, even if not technically a schism (yet...if it continues with no change, it would turn into schism). 

You erroneously believe that you can attend any mass as long as they aren't in schism; this ignores the issue of jurisdiction/licitness and you are wrong to do so.  Now that you are aware of the sspx's illicitness, to attend their masses is to sin gravely.  I hope you please God, follow your conscience, and only attend diocesan masses in the future.  Any other action is hypocritical to the nth degree.


Offline ByzCat3000

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XavierSam, I get the argument (and I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but I can at least follow it) that SVism is schism, but how could it possibly be heresy?

Offline Climacus

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Xavier, i've responed to multiple of your posts (in this thread and others) and you never reply, so you're not the only one who avoids issues.

Secondly, the new-sspx is not is schism, but new-rome has made it clear that to attend their masses, which are not allowed by the local bishops (because the sspx lacks jurisdiction), are illicit, therefore sinful.  So if you attend an sspx mass, you commit a sin.  You've yet to explain your contradiction here, which is what Ladislaus has pointed out multiple times.  

On the contrary, Trads who attend an sspx mass (or any other Trad mass) do NOT commit a sin of attending an illicit mass because they believe, rightly, that Quo Primum allows any Trad mass to be licit, forever.  Further, they consider this current Church crisis as an emergency situation, per Canon Law, which allows Trads to attend any mass with a valid priest, jurisdiction being supplied by Canon Law itself, whose highest law is the salvation of souls, and this law overrules all other laws.  The emergency situation being the new mass itself and V2 by extension, which sacrilegiously poses as the True Mass and blasphemously ridicules the True Liturgy.

You, however, accept the new mass as only being a "lesser good", instead of the anti-Trent, anti-Catholic, anti-reverent abomination that it is.  If you accept that the new mass is catholic, then there is no emergency situation in the dioceses, then there is no supplied jurisdiction for Trads/sspx, then the sspx has no reason to exist and their activities are GRAVELY illicit, since they directly oppose the authority of their bishops and the pope himself.  If you attend such a mass, knowing their illicit stance, knowing that you have access to multiple masses in your diocese (latin or english), then you sin GRAVELY by supporting ALL their activities, since you are promoting known usurpers of church authority, which is a schismatic mindset, even if not technically a schism (yet...if it continues with no change, it would turn into schism).

You erroneously believe that you can attend any mass as long as they aren't in schism; this ignores the issue of jurisdiction/licitness and you are wrong to do so.  Now that you are aware of the sspx's illicitness, to attend their masses is to sin gravely.  I hope you please God, follow your conscience, and only attend diocesan masses in the future.  Any other action is hypocritical to the nth degree.
If Quo Primum allows ANY trad Mass to be licit, forever, then why can't Xavier assist at illicit SSPX Masses under Quo Primum's protection? 

Offline Pax Vobis

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If Quo Primum allows ANY trad Mass to be licit, forever, then why can't Xavier assist at illicit SSPX Masses under Quo Primum's protection? 
Objectively, any catholic can attend any non-indult, Traditional Latin Mass without sin, per Quo Primum.  Xavier can as well, in theory.

But subjectively, since Xavier believes that the novus ordo is valid and acceptable, and since he believes that new-rome and the local bishops are allowed to put restrictions on the sspx/Trads (contrary to Quo Primum), then, Xavier must follow these commands and avoid any Trad mass because these are illicit and sinful, as the pope and bishops tell him.  

You either believe that Quo Primum allows the Trad Mass without restrictions AND that the novus ordo/indult are illicit...or...you believe that the novus ordo/indult are illicit and the True Mass is allowable with restrictions.  If you believe the former, this means you are a 100% Traditional Catholic.  The latter view is one of the conciliar church.  It's either-or.  (An unbiased, studious reading of Quo Primum shows that the former/Trad view is the legal one.)

The "middle" of these 2 views, which is absolutely hypocritical, has been adopted since the advent of the "motu" in 2007 where people think they can go to any mass they want (latin or english), without thought to the history or legality of these masses.  This has mostly been adopted by the millenial generation, who don't know the history of the V2 vs Trad struggle, and who also are ignorant that the main fight is not over the language of the mass (i.e. english vs latin) but over the Faith itself (and the liturgy which surrounds it).  They never grew up with the True Faith, or if they did, they abandoned it, only caring about the "smells and bells" of the latin mass, which they prefer over the english, but will not condemn the english mass, as they don't know enough of theology to understand its problems (nor do they care).  Xavier seems to follow this "middle" view, which is full of contradiction, as he shows a lack of knowledge of the issues at play.

Offline Nishant Xavier

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Here are 5 facts about the SSPX neither Pax Vobis nor anyone else touched, You repeat your personal claims about the SSPX, contrary to (1) the Pope who explicitly said to the District Superior in Argentina, "You are Catholic. I will help you." (2) the fact that Priests outside Catholic communion cannot have the power to forgive sins, (3) that SSPX Bishops after the Year of Mercy have ordinary jurisdiction, as Bp. Fellay has confirmed - and ordinary jurisdiction cannot exist outside the Church and (4) that none of 1-3 affects laymen who attend SSPX chapels anyway, but of course you just want that rhetorical point. And I don't need to mention that (5) Come Divine Mercy Sunday, the SSPX will probably have 2 more Bishops with Papal Approval.

Pax Vobis shows a lack of understanding of what vagrant clergy and episcopi vagantes are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopus_vagans and why the Catholic Church has always held that jurisdiction is not some mere technicality; no, the Catholic Church teaches Orthodox Bishops lack jurisdiction. That's why you can't normally confess to them or their Priests. Auxiliary Bishops are a bit more complex, yet even they have to verify the supply of jurisdiction with the Pope. Purely vagrant ones are not complicated at all. If a bishop is vagans, he needs to be confirmed in the episcopacy and ask jurisdiction from the Pope.

See Fr. Gueranger: "We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. From whose hand have they received the keys? If their mission come from the apostolic see, let us honour and obey them, for they are sent to us by Jesus Christ, who has invested them, through Peter, with His own authority. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them, for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. The holy anointing may have conferred on them the sacred character of the episcopate: it matters not; they must be as aliens to us, for they have not been sent, they are not pastors." https://reginamag.com/saint-peters-chair-at-antioch/ Fr. Gueranger says you should not approach a cleric who is vagans.

I asked Pax Vobis (1) to prove from any traditional, pre-Vatican II source the idea of "material offices", (2) the false teaching of the sedeprivationists that one can continue a parallel sect without jurisdiction apart from the Apostolic Church. He hasn't done so.

Pax also misrepresents some other things. SSPX and Indult Traditional Catholics have every intention to promote the TLM and see it more widely restored; we have full approval and authorization from Rome and the Hierarchy to do so. Therefore, SSPX Masses are not only valid and licit, but will obtain for you abundant efficacious graces to save your souls. They are arguably the best place to be now.

The right approach will bear abundant fruits in the decades to come. Wait and see. You may disagree now, but it will be proven then.

"Simply put, tradition and orthodoxy are not optional. Reverent liturgies, incorporating traditional disciplines such as ad orientem Masses and altar boys serving, aren’t merely a preference. They are foundational. Successful diocese also promote and encourage the Traditional Latin Mass instead of simply tolerating it, or worse, discouraging it. Traditional orders, as example, are booming while struggling dioceses are seeing retirements far outpace ordinations ... Of course, there must always be prayer. Pray for vocations. Parishioners praying from the pews. Young men spending time before the Blessed Sacrament in prayer, listening and discerning. We must humbly ask God for priests. But that prayer, and this is key, must be in conjunction with traditional liturgies and orthodox schools. To pray for priests while rejecting that which forms our young men and assists them to discern, is nothing less than tempting God. We are guilty of presumption." https://liturgyguy.com/2017/07/14/increasing-vocations-isnt-rocket-science/

Quote from: ByzCat3000
I get the argument (and I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but I can at least follow it) that SVism is schism, but how could it possibly be heresy?
Thanks for the question. To avoid misunderstanding, we could preface the number of years of sede vacante we are talking about. If someone believes in 5 year SVism, I would agree with you that that is probably not heretical; it is schism and wrong, but probably something less than heresy. But what about 61 year svism? What if someone proposed the See of Peter has been vacant the last 100 years? At some point, the person denies the Vatican I Dogma that St. Peter will have Perpetual Successors. My view is that - because of Bishops being appointed and consecrated around 35 and now resigning from office around 75 - 40 to at most 45 years of svism already stretches it to breaking point. Not only will the Cardinals and Roman Clergy appointed by the "last Pope" die or resign, so will the Ordinaries or diocesan Bishops in office. At that time, Apostolic Succession will cease and all episcopal sees throughout the universal Church will fall empty. Would you disagree, ByzCath?

God bless.