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Author Topic: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.  (Read 9933 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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in my opinion...the problem with you non sedes is you are in danger of being schismatic..how do you get around the following while at the same time state the non catholic freemason , Christ destroying Borgolio is a true pope...

Accordingly schismatics properly so called are those who, willfully and intentionally separate themselves from the unity of the ChurchWherefore schismatics are those who refuse to submit to the Sovereign Pontiff, and to hold communion with those members of the Church who acknowledge his supremacy.”

so do you non sedes submit to Borgolio the Jєω....if not tell me how you are not a schismatic

God bless

Their response is that they intend to submit, and that they do submit in all things lawfully commanded and truthfully taught.


Offline ByzCat3000

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I'm not talking about dogmatic attitudes.  +Sanborn is of course a dogmatic sedeprivationist, and his flavor of privationism heavily leans toward emphasizing the formal lack of authority.  Nevertheless, it prevents the THEOLOGICAL extreme of claiming that any lay armchair theologian can despose a pope.
I'm sorry but I don't understand how.  How does it prevent any such thing?  


Offline Ladislaus

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I'm sorry but I don't understand how.  How does it prevent any such thing?  

Because, according to sedeprivationism, deposition from material office requires the authority of the Church ... i.e. it excludes conclavism.

Offline Climacus

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:laugh1:

If he understood the papacy, then he would not be a schismatic.
He does understand the papacy.  Everything he wrote is accurate.  If you disagree, could you identify his errors in the response quoted? 

Offline ByzCat3000

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Because, according to sedeprivationism, deposition from material office requires the authority of the Church ... i.e. it excludes conclavism.
OK true, it rules out conclavism, but it still allows for any individual to question whether any given pope holds the formal office.  I don't see how the same infinite regression argument doesn't apply to it.  It seems like everyone is in the same awkward epistemic boat, whether it be R + R, Sedeprivationism, Sedevacantism, or heck even a conservative Novus Ordite can't accept everything Francis says.


Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
His Grace Archbishop Lefebvre, from the link given earlier: "Consequently, the Society of St. Pius X, its priests, brothers, sisters, and oblates, cannot tolerate among its members those who refuse to pray for the Pope or affirm that the Novus Ordo Missae is per se invalid." To drop the name of the Pope from the Canon and then to declare this to others proudly is nothing less than public schism.

I gave a certain someone 5 clear proofs that the SSPX was not in schism, all from Rome and the authorities of the Church. Yet he dishonestly ignored it altogether, then repeated his false allegations for the umpteenth time as if they had not been answered before.

As a layman, now 61 years later into your alleged "material vacancy", you can raise doubts with the Bishops and Cardinals. You can write to them or go and visit them in person. You're not a schismatic in doing so. If they all tell you Pope Francis is Pope, then he is.

The question, Ladislaus, is whether you are willing and able to retract your opinion and submit to the judgment of the Church.

It is Church Teaching that the Church is infallible in identifying the man who holds the office of the Pope. You reject Her judgment.

Quote from: Climacus
Great response here.  XavierSem understands the papacy.  Thanks for taking the time to explain something so simple and yet so grossly misunderstood by Sedes today Xavier.  I am relatively new to this forum so I don't know what your positions are but you definitely grabbed my attention with this response. Thank you.
Sure, Climacus, happy to help. The sedes have definitely got it wrong, and I'll give you a simple means to be assured 61 year svism is not only wrong but in fact heretical to hold. Vatican I defined the Pope's Primacy of Jurisdiction and even the "last Pope" of the sedevacantists taught that only the Pope can grant ordinary jurisdiction to a Bishop. But a Bishop is generally consecrated around 35 years of age and resigns around 75. Now, it is defined dogma and de fide that there must always be Ordinaries in the Church. This is a requirement of Apostolicity, as is explained in the CE and numerous other sources. Therefore, even to stretch it to 10 or 15 more years, 50-55 years of an alleged interregnum is an absolute impossibility.

The Church will lose the power of jurisdiction itself if the See of Peter is even "materially vacant" for that long. So, not possible.

You will never find in a pre-Vatican II theology manual the claim of the sedeprivationists that the Pope can have a "material office". What the books say is that the Power of Orders is the Matter of Apostolic Succession. The Power of Jurisdiction is the Form of Apostolic Succession. And Jurisdiction is not again composed of matter and form. For an analogy, in man, the body is the matter and the soul is the form. But the soul is not composite, but is simple in comparison with the body, as St. Thomas teaches.

Let me quote Fr. Gueranger on (1) the visible nature of the Church and the Hierarchy, (2) the visible way in which the power of jurisdiction devolves from the Chair of St. Peter to the Bishops. "Thus it is that the divine Founder of the Church, who willed that she should be a city seated on a mountain, gave her visibility; it was an essential requisite; for since all were called to enter her pale, all must be able to see her. But He was not satisfied with this. He moreover willed that the spiritual power exercised by her pastors should come from a visible source, so that the faithful might have a sure means of verifying the claims of those who were to guide them in His name. Our Lord (we say it reverently) owed this to us; for, on the last day, He will not receive us as His children, unless we shall have been members of His Church, and have lived in union with Him by the ministry of pastors lawfully constituted." Let the sedevacantist take note.

The way forward for Traditional Catholics imho looking for the right traditional Catholic position is that of SSPX and Indult Traditionalists continuing to uphold Tradition and Catholic orthodoxy in canonical communion with Rome. Certainly, after July 2007 and Summorum Pontificuм correcting some past injustices, there is in my opinion no further need to do otherwise. And even in the last 10 years, that approach has borne some fruit, and it holds great promise of bearing much more fruit in the decades to come, especially if Traditionalists take the right steps now, work together in unity in truth and love, in the path that His Excellency Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pagliarani have charted out for us. Catholic Tradition is the future. But in the Church and for the Church, with the Pope's full authorization, so that the Society itself acts as the Church.
"We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

Offline forlorn

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The question, Ladislaus, is whether you are willing and able to retract your opinion and submit to the judgment of the Church.
Are you?
Pope Benedict XVI 2009 - "Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers — even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty — do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."

Offline Stubborn

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Their response is that they intend to submit, and that they do submit in all things lawfully commanded and truthfully taught.
To put it another way, we remain the pope's good subjects, but God's first.

Nothing profound, nothing complicated, just Catholic.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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To put it another way, we remain the pope's good subjects, but God's first.

Nothing profound, nothing complicated, just Catholic.
for arguement sake I say you are schismatic, you have no real defence....the sede position is superior

Offline forlorn

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To put it another way, we remain the pope's good subjects, but God's first.

Nothing profound, nothing complicated, just Catholic.
We know God through the Church. The same Church that tells us not to go to the masses of priests without ministry or societies without canonical status. The same Church whose rites cannot be declared impious or unholy under pain of anathema. Yet you're happily willing to ignore all that. 

Offline songbird

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Words in canon:  We offer Thee for Thy holy Catholic Church:  which vouchsafe to grant peace, as also to preserve unite, and govern it throughout the whole world together with Thy servant N. our Pope; N. our Bishops; as also all "orthodox" believers and professors of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

Vatican I defined "Pope" and when they did, "Infallibilty" defined, found anti-popes.  Can we honestly list Francis as pope, with the words that follow: orthodox, is he a believer and professor of the Catholic and Apostoic Faith?  Vatican I helped the Faithful of the Church to do as God/CHrist said, "You will know them by their fruits.  

Thank God for Vatican I, for Cardinal Manning and Pope Leo XIII just for starters.  They knew what was coming.  They knew Freemasonary made it to the top=pope.
They knew a Council had to be held, whether or not Bishops wanted it or not.  Pope Leo XIII experienced the DEvil with Christ and their conversation.

We are all bound to pray for those who are to see over our souls.  Their names may not fit in the canon with the words that surround them if their names were put there.

We know by prophecy how Rome will end up.  We know the Mass will end.  The Redemptorist priest knew this and wrote it in their books, "we know the Mass will end" that is continual.  Christ's blood in Eternal, on earth, continual.

We can not change the words, but those who are supposedly clergy are expected to act : orthodox, believers and professors of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith.  IF the clergy choose to follow the ways of Satan, they are in heresy and they are the schismatics,


Offline Ladislaus

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He does understand the papacy.  Everything he wrote is accurate.  If you disagree, could you identify his errors in the response quoted?

It's sad how many people have warped Catholic ecclesiology in order to justify R&R.  Throw all of Catholic ecclesiology into the dustbin in order to defend the legitimacy of Bergoglio et al.

Offline Ladislaus

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Vatican I defined "Pope" and when they did, "Infallibilty" defined, found anti-popes.  Can we honestly list Francis as pope, with the words that follow: orthodox, is he a believer and professor of the Catholic and Apostoic Faith? 

Yep, to put Bergoglio in there next to that phrases is very difficult to swallow.  Latin is "cultores fidei" ... which means more along the lines of keepers/preservers/fosterers of the faith.

Offline Ladislaus

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The question, Ladislaus, is whether you are willing and able to retract your opinion and submit to the judgment of the Church.

:laugh1:  You're serious?

Of course I'm willing to submit, and the second I were to come to the conclusion that the V2 Papal Claimants were undoubtedly legitimate, I would make haste to return to full communion with them.

It is YOU who refuse to submit to the "judgment of the Church".  That Church (as you would have it) has declared the Vatican II teachings to be orthodox and the Novus Ordo Mass to be good.  Yet you refuse to submit those judgments, and persist in schism from the institution you profess to be the Holy Catholic Church.

One pre-Vatican II canonist taught that one cannot be considered guilty of schism for refusing to submit to the Pope if the refusal is based on serious reasons and widespread doubt regarding his person.  But since you claim that no such doubt exists, you have no excuse for your schism.  You are formally schismatic, and not a Catholic.

Offline Ladislaus

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His Grace Archbishop Lefebvre, from the link given earlier: "Consequently, the Society of St. Pius X, its priests, brothers, sisters, and oblates, cannot tolerate among its members those who refuse to pray for the Pope or affirm that the Novus Ordo Missae is per se invalid." To drop the name of the Pope from the Canon and then to declare this to others proudly is nothing less than public schism.

Again, "His Grace Archbishop Lefebvre" rejects your opinion that the legitimacy of the Vatican II popes is dogmatic fact.  

At some point +Lefebvre expelled the sedevacantists after he decided there could be no peace in the Society with such a division (in the wake of "The Nine").

Read this article:  http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

It is replete with dozens of quotations from +Lefebvre in which he goes from being open to and tolerant of sedevacantism, to very nearly (by his own words) coming out openly as sedevacantists.  He states at one point that he and Bishop de Castro Mayer did not YET consider it prudent to come out publicly with it.