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Author Topic: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.  (Read 15370 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter, and is the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity.



It's a recognition of his office, around which Catholics are unified.
Pax Vobis, you are not reading Ex Quo, but only reiterating what the sedeprivationists have confused you with. There is no such thing as a "material office", nor a mere "recognition of his office". Even the Orthodox or Old Catholics could claim they recognize the office. That's not what Catholics are supposed to do, read it again: "recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter," so, the Bishops recognize the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. And all who pray for the Pope as the Pope in the Canon by doing the same manifest for that reason "the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity." Sedevacantists/privationists on the other hand who of their own will drop the name of the Pope from the Canon or choose to attend the Masses of schismatic clergy who do so fall under the latter category here "the commemoration implies a profession of due subjection to the Roman pontiff as head of the Church, and of a willingness to remain in the unity of the Church. On the other hand the omission of this commemoration signifies the intention of steadfastly espousing schism." - Dropping the name of the Pope is a sin of schism.

Instead you say: "This is why, assuming you believe that +Francis is pope, you are obligated to continue to pray for him" - is that really what Pope Benedict XIV says? he says you are separated from the communion of the entire world if you don't.

Just read the CE on what it says about Apostolicity and it word for word refutes the sedeprivationists. The SPs believe Apostolicity of mission and the Apostolic Church is one thing and yet we have to separate and continue elsewhere apart from Rome. Wrong.

Is that what any Saint has ever taught? Please show me even one in such a case. I can show you a hundred, but I'll just cite one.

St. Anthony Mary Claret in his Catechism on Apostolicity: "The fourth note or mark of the Church is to be Apostolic. That is to say, it was founded by the Apostles and is governed by their successors, the bishops, who. since the Apostles, have succeeded without interruption. And these bishops have a lawful mission to guard always, in their teaching and management of the Church, the unity of Faith and of communion with their head and center, the Roman Pontiff ... All of us know that the Apostles fulfilled the mission that Jesus Christ gave them. And it is sufficient to read the list of the Catholic bishops, especially of the Supreme Pontiffs of Rome as the continuing Head or principal leader of Christianity - better said, of Catholicism - in order to see that ... You will notice above that with the word mission I added the word lawful, that is, coming from that one who has the keys of the kingdom of heaven or of the Church, who is the Pope ...

For this reason you cannot doubt that the only true Church is our Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman Church, in which you must persevere, inwardly and outwardly." http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2009/03/eens-saint-anthony-mary-claret-from.html

Offline Pax Vobis

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There is no such thing as a "material office"
Just because you're not familiar with the term doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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That's not what Catholics are supposed to do, read it again: "recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter,"
I'm not the one saying that we should drop +Francis' name from the canon; the sedes say that.  However, just because one does not use the pope's name doesn't mean they are in schism automatically.  It depends on the reason.  For example, the prayer says you are praying for the pope and your local bishop "and all other orthodox members of the catholic faith".  Well...my local bishop and +Francis are NOT orthodox, so even if I include their names, they won't get the spiritual benefit because they have tossed aside the Faith, of their own accord, and chose novelties.


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And these bishops have a lawful mission to guard always, in their teaching and management of the Church, the unity of Faith and of communion with their head and center, the Roman Pontiff
And 95% of these bishops, including the last 5 popes did NOT guard the Church against error, nor did they promote the unity of the Faith, nor do they support communion with the Eternal Teachings of the Faith or the unchanging Apostolic teachings.  If anything, new-rome and their V2 novelties have created a schism with the Truth and with consistent, universal teachings of the Faith for the last 1,960 years.

At the end of the day, I don't care if priest says the name of +Francis in the canon or not.  That's his decision (and it's not a schismatic issue).  But when these priests seek to impose their views on others, and to divide Traditionalism by arbitrary rules which they have falsely elevated to the level of doctrine, then they have crossed the line into cult-like thinking.  No priest or bishop in the Trad world has ANY jurisdiction or ANY authority over any other catholic, period.  They do not run a parish or a diocese, so they have no power to make added rules.  Their job is to provide the mass, sacraments and teach the Faith.  Once you start adding rules to the essentials of the Faith, you cross the line into extremism, which is what the whole "una cuм" issue has become.



Offline Ladislaus

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So say you tell someone their view is heretical.  And you show them church teaching.  And they just disagree with you, not because they on principle aren't willing to submit to whatever the Church teaches (indeed the person would believe whatever the Church teaches, if only they knew) but because they disagree with your interpretation of said Church teaching.

Yes, that's where it becomes tricky.  Heretics can be slippery.  They will SAY that it matters to them that their position be consistent with Church dogma.  But the question is whether they really do.  At the end of the day, no one but God can judge that.

We have to deal with things as manifest in the external forum.  That's why St. Robert Bellarmine speaks about MANIFEST heresy deposing from the Church rather than FORMAL heresy.  So this is the wrong argument here.  You could have someone who on the outside appears to be perfectly orthodox, but in his soul doesn't have the faith ... and vice versa, someone who's a heretic outwardly but inside has the sincere intention to accept Church teaching.  But de internis Ecclesia non judicat, the Church does not judge regarding matters of the internal forum.

We can only judge the PERTINACIOUS adherence in the external forum to heretical doctrine.  And there's no doubt that the V2 papal claimants adhere pertinaciously to their errors.  I'm certain of it that if Bergoglio were to resign, and some orthodox Pope came along and ordered Bergoglio to submit to traditional Church teaching, he would refuse.

And I do believe that these men are active infiltrators and conscious destroyers.

But this is the wrong argument.  Personal heresy doesn't even matter.  If the V2 Magisterium had taught perfectly orthodox doctrine and we were still using the Tridentine Mass, etc. ... then I would not waste 10 seconds of my time attempting to resolve the question of whether Bergoglio's insane ramblings constitute pertinacious heresy.

So the problem we have here is whether the V2 Magisterium is in fact the Catholic Magisterium, and not the personal state of Bergoglio's soul.  Do I even recognize this Conciliar establishment as the Catholic Church?  I most certainly do not.  As to how or why this has happened, God only knows.  Archbishop Lefebvre famously speculated about the possible explanations.  Was Paul VI drugged?  Was Paul VI insane?  Was Paul VI being blackmailed?  Was there a double put in his place?  Was Paul VI a heretic?  At the end of the day, along with the Archbishop, we don't know for sure.  All we know is that their Magisterium is not the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, and they are not (at least freely) exercising the papal Magisterium in a formal way.

Here's how faith starts.  We look at the Church and recognize its marks.  Then, based on these motives of credibility, we submit to this Church.  So there's a lead up of natural reason towards supernatural faith.  All this is taught at Vatican I.  But we do not see these marks in the Conciliar Church, so we withdraw from submission to it ... categorically.  R&R however says that we can recognize it as the Church and at the same time submit to what we like and not submit to what we don't like.  That, in a nutshell, is the debate between Sedevacantism and R&R.

Offline ByzCat3000

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Yes, that's where it becomes tricky.  Heretics can be slippery.  They will SAY that it matters to them that their position be consistent with Church dogma.  But the question is whether they really do.  At the end of the day, no one but God can judge that.

We have to deal with things as manifest in the external forum.  That's why St. Robert Bellarmine speaks about MANIFEST heresy deposing from the Church rather than FORMAL heresy.  So this is the wrong argument here.  You could have someone who on the outside appears to be perfectly orthodox, but in his soul doesn't have the faith ... and vice versa, someone who's a heretic outwardly but inside has the sincere intention to accept Church teaching.  But de internis Ecclesia non judicat, the Church does not judge regarding matters of the internal forum.

We can only judge the PERTINACIOUS adherence in the external forum to heretical doctrine.  And there's no doubt that the V2 papal claimants adhere pertinaciously to their errors.  I'm certain of it that if Bergoglio were to resign, and some orthodox Pope came along and ordered Bergoglio to submit to traditional Church teaching, he would refuse.

And I do believe that these men are active infiltrators and conscious destroyers.

But this is the wrong argument.  Personal heresy doesn't even matter.  If the V2 Magisterium had taught perfectly orthodox doctrine and we were still using the Tridentine Mass, etc. ... then I would not waste 10 seconds of my time attempting to resolve the question of whether Bergoglio's insane ramblings constitute pertinacious heresy.

So the problem we have here is whether the V2 Magisterium is in fact the Catholic Magisterium, and not the personal state of Bergoglio's soul.  Do I even recognize this Conciliar establishment as the Catholic Church?  I most certainly do not.  As to how or why this has happened, God only knows.  Archbishop Lefebvre famously speculated about the possible explanations.  Was Paul VI drugged?  Was Paul VI insane?  Was Paul VI being blackmailed?  Was there a double put in his place?  Was Paul VI a heretic?  At the end of the day, along with the Archbishop, we don't know for sure.  All we know is that their Magisterium is not the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, and they are not (at least freely) exercising the papal Magisterium in a formal way.

Here's how faith starts.  We look at the Church and recognize its marks.  Then, based on these motives of credibility, we submit to this Church.  So there's a lead up of natural reason towards supernatural faith.  All this is taught at Vatican I.  But we do not see these marks in the Conciliar Church, so we withdraw from submission to it ... categorically.  R&R however says that we can recognize it as the Church and at the same time submit to what we like and not submit to what we don't like.  That, in a nutshell, is the debate between Sedevacantism and R&R.
What does "rejecting the conciliar establishment as the Catholic Church" mean exactly?  My question goes deeper than someone like Bergoglio here.

Say you meet a Catholic layperson who according to all appearances seems to love the Church and the faith. But he believes that Vatican II is in fact part of the magsiterium and interprets it through some sort of hermeneutic of continuity.  Would you view him as outside the Church or presume he was a formal heretic?

I also wonder how you'd view more conservative members of the current hierarchy, thinking guys like Cardinal Burke or Cardinal Sarah here (whether you recognize their holy orders or not.)  Francis seems like a really easy case.  I, too, would be shocked if he didn't intend heresy.  I'm not convinced the entire current hierarchy does.  

Offline King Wenceslas

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Sedeprivationism is hands down the best explanation for what is going on here.

On the R&R side you have emphasis on the material aspect (present), whereas with straight Sedevacantism, the emphasis is on the formal (absent).

Sedeprivationism gets it right, recognizing that the material aspect remains even while the formal is absent.

I agree with you 100%.

At this time the current occupant is totally a material claimant. Anything else leads one into the briar patch of either extremism or compromise ad infinitum to the lose of the true faith. Thank goodness that the thesis of Lauriers by Sanborn was up on the internet when I needed it most.
The most compelling statement in Sanborn's writeup was that the Church is not run by a mob and Francis has to be removed by proper ecclesiastical authority which will take some doing. This, in my opinion, leads to the conclusion that Francis will have to be excommunicated and condemned after his death by an orthodox Pope.

In the meantime though we at least have a theology that protects us from falling into the pit of despair. A material occupant with no power to harm the Church but still has the ability to take many souls to hell. Maybe this is what God permits for the world and the members of the Church being a debacle of sin.


Offline Ladislaus

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What does "rejecting the conciliar establishment as the Catholic Church" mean exactly?  My question goes deeper than someone like Bergoglio here.

Say you meet a Catholic layperson who according to all appearances seems to love the Church and the faith. But he believes that Vatican II is in fact part of the magsiterium and interprets it through some sort of hermeneutic of continuity.  Would you view him as outside the Church or presume he was a formal heretic?

No.  I was specifically referring to the official Vatican II establishment ... with its official public worship and official teaching.  What makes it difficult with the Novus Ordo is that many within it actually profess the Catholic faith.  If someone were in a publicly-professed outside-the-Church institution, like the Orthodox Church, the presumption is that of formal heresy/schism.  But within the Novus Ordo, the public profession is one of Catholicism.  Now, 90% of those in the Novus Ordo likely are bereft of Catholic faith, but there are many who still cling to it despite the Conciliar establishment.

Offline Ladislaus

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I agree with you 100%.

At this time the current occupant is totally a material claimant. Anything else leads one into the briar patch of either extremism or compromise ad infinitum to the lose of the true faith. Thank goodness that the thesis of Lauriers by Sanborn was up on the internet when I needed it most.
The most compelling statement in Sanborn's writeup was that the Church is not run by a mob and Francis has to be removed by proper ecclesiastical authority which will take some doing. This, in my opinion, leads to the conclusion that Francis will have to be excommunicated and condemned after his death by an orthodox Pope.

In the meantime though we at least have a theology that protects us from falling into the pit of despair. A material occupant with no power to harm the Church but still has the ability to take many souls to hell. Maybe this is what God permits for the world and the members of the Church being a debacle of sin.

Father Chazal recently studied the question of sedevacantism and articulated a position that was in its essence sedeprivationism ... without knowing it.  So we have another Catholic mind, studying the question, coming to a very similar conclusion.

Sedeprivationism addresses many of the valid points made by Siscoe/Salsa but avoids their mistakes and errors; and then it also navigates away from the extremes of radical sedevacantism ... which would allow lay people even to usurp the prerogatives that belong only to the Church.  Sedeprivationism avoids the pitfalls of both extremes.

Offline reconquest

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Sedeprivationism addresses many of the valid points made by Siscoe/Salsa but avoids their mistakes and errors; and then it also navigates away from the extremes of radical sedevacantism ... which would allow lay people even to usurp the prerogatives that belong only to the Church.  Sedeprivationism avoids the pitfalls of both extremes.

I don't see how this is necessarily the case. Some of the most hardened tenants of sectarian sedevacantism, like Bishop Sanborn, are also sedeprivationists.


Offline Pax Vobis

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At this time the current occupant is totally a material claimant. Anything else leads one into the briar patch of either extremism or compromise ad infinitum to the lose of the true faith. Thank goodness that the thesis of Lauriers by Sanborn was up on the internet when I needed it most.
The most compelling statement in Sanborn's writeup was that the Church is not run by a mob and Francis has to be removed by proper ecclesiastical authority which will take some doing. This, in my opinion, leads to the conclusion that Francis will have to be excommunicated and condemned after his death by an orthodox Pope.

In the meantime though we at least have a theology that protects us from falling into the pit of despair. A material occupant with no power to harm the Church but still has the ability to take many souls to hell. Maybe this is what God permits for the world and the members of the Church being a debacle of sin.
Great points, King W.  Now if we could just get some of the extreme sedes to moderate their views, then I think the Trad world would get along better.  We don't have to worry about the new-sspx's compromises, for soon, barring some Divine intervention, they will be indult.  Then the trad world will be left with sedes (of some sort), the Resistance, and independents.  I'm hoping this additional stress on all catholics will squeeze out some drops of charity within each chapel/priest.  Times will get tougher when the new-sspx caves, masses will be less available, and many will be without the mass for weeks.  We're all going to need to work together.

Offline Ladislaus

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I don't see how this is necessarily the case. Some of the most hardened tenants of sectarian sedevacantism, like Bishop Sanborn, are also sedeprivationists.

I'm not talking about dogmatic attitudes.  +Sanborn is of course a dogmatic sedeprivationist, and his flavor of privationism heavily leans toward emphasizing the formal lack of authority.  Nevertheless, it prevents the THEOLOGICAL extreme of claiming that any lay armchair theologian can despose a pope.

Offline reconquest

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Nevertheless, it prevents the THEOLOGICAL extreme of claiming that any lay armchair theologian can despose a pope.

Again, I'm not sure that it does! Bishop Sanborn holds that any lay armchair theologian can declare a pope deprived of formal authority if according to his private judgment said pope promulgated evil laws or disciplines. It's a position that, on the face of it, is hardly less destructive of ecclesiastical authority than the type of visceral sedevacantism you rightly denounce.


Offline Climacus

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It's a recognition of his office, around which Catholics are unified.
Pax Vobis, you are not reading Ex Quo, but only reiterating what the sedeprivationists have confused you with. There is no such thing as a "material office", nor a mere "recognition of his office". Even the Orthodox or Old Catholics could claim they recognize the office. That's not what Catholics are supposed to do, read it again: "recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter," so, the Bishops recognize the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. And all who pray for the Pope as the Pope in the Canon by doing the same manifest for that reason "the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity." Sedevacantists/privationists on the other hand who of their own will drop the name of the Pope from the Canon or choose to attend the Masses of schismatic clergy who do so fall under the latter category here "the commemoration implies a profession of due subjection to the Roman pontiff as head of the Church, and of a willingness to remain in the unity of the Church. On the other hand the omission of this commemoration signifies the intention of steadfastly espousing schism." - Dropping the name of the Pope is a sin of schism.

Instead you say: "This is why, assuming you believe that +Francis is pope, you are obligated to continue to pray for him" - is that really what Pope Benedict XIV says? he says you are separated from the communion of the entire world if you don't.

Just read the CE on what it says about Apostolicity and it word for word refutes the sedeprivationists. The SPs believe Apostolicity of mission and the Apostolic Church is one thing and yet we have to separate and continue elsewhere apart from Rome. Wrong.

Is that what any Saint has ever taught? Please show me even one in such a case. I can show you a hundred, but I'll just cite one.

St. Anthony Mary Claret in his Catechism on Apostolicity: "The fourth note or mark of the Church is to be Apostolic. That is to say, it was founded by the Apostles and is governed by their successors, the bishops, who. since the Apostles, have succeeded without interruption. And these bishops have a lawful mission to guard always, in their teaching and management of the Church, the unity of Faith and of communion with their head and center, the Roman Pontiff ... All of us know that the Apostles fulfilled the mission that Jesus Christ gave them. And it is sufficient to read the list of the Catholic bishops, especially of the Supreme Pontiffs of Rome as the continuing Head or principal leader of Christianity - better said, of Catholicism - in order to see that ... You will notice above that with the word mission I added the word lawful, that is, coming from that one who has the keys of the kingdom of heaven or of the Church, who is the Pope ...

For this reason you cannot doubt that the only true Church is our Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman Church, in which you must persevere, inwardly and outwardly." http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2009/03/eens-saint-anthony-mary-claret-from.html
Great response here.  XavierSem understands the papacy.  Thanks for taking the time to explain something so simple and yet so grossly misunderstood by Sedes today Xavier.  I am relatively new to this forum so I don't know what your positions are but you definitely grabbed my attention with this response. Thank you.  

Offline Ladislaus

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XavierSem understands the papacy.

:laugh1:

If he understood the papacy, then he would not be a schismatic.

Offline Ladislaus

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For the third time, now, Xavier, Archbishop Lefebvre disagrees with you and Siscoe that the legitimacy of the V2 Popes is dogmatic fact.

Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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in my opinion...the problem with you non sedes is you are in danger of being schismatic..how do you get around the following while at the same time state the non catholic freemason , Christ destroying Borgolio is a true pope...

Accordingly schismatics properly so called are those who, willfully and intentionally separate themselves from the unity of the ChurchWherefore schismatics are those who refuse to submit to the Sovereign Pontiff, and to hold communion with those members of the Church who acknowledge his supremacy.”

so do you non sedes submit to Borgolio the jew....if not tell me how you are not a schismatic

God bless