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Author Topic: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.  (Read 9947 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2019, 08:44:30 AM »
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    In sum - until we have a reforming Pope with the authority to decide the issue definitively sedevacantism remains a hypothesis.
    On that basis it would be uncatholic for any priest to say a non una cuм Mass.
    Agree 1000%!  In fact, i'd go further and say I don't even have a problem with priests leaving out +Francis' name from the canon.  That's their private decision.  The problem becomes when they look at sedevacantism as a fact, so they create divisions in Tradition by saying that if you're not a sede then you are a heretic by association.  And the 100s of problems this causes...
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #46 on: March 22, 2019, 08:51:50 AM »
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    Again, you confuse "can be questioned" (i.e. not infallible) with not official or authoritative.  AL was clearly official and authoritative ... though it also clearly did not meet the notes for infallibility.
    I think we have a different definition of "authoritative".  AL was an official Synod but it's not authoritative in my understanding because it doesn't compel me to do anything.  I doesn't compel any priest or bishop or any other catholic to do or believe anything (yes, the issue of divorced catholics receiving communion is a big issue, but is that a direct command to bishops/priests to allow this?  Many are debating the limits on the Synod's commands (which no one did right after V2)).  All it is, is a glorified commission where clerics voted on proposals and "pastoral" responses to problems.  The conclusions of the commission/Synod are "advisory" and they are not absolute or clear enough to be considered a ruling or a decision or a command.

    Yes, it's authoritative in the sense that the pope and bishops were involved, but that's a very small, insignificant sense.  In the grand scheme of things, the Synod was ambigiuous, indecisive and non-authoritarian in scope.  Even now, there are clerics debating what AL even means for their dioceses.  There are no concrete directives which any catholic must follow, so it has in the practical sense, no authoritative results.  (Same thing applies to V2 as well.)

    I'm not sure what you mean by authoritative.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #47 on: March 22, 2019, 08:54:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 22, 2019, 08:44:30 AM
    Agree 1000%!  In fact, i'd go further and say I don't even have a problem with priests leaving out +Francis' name from the canon.  That's their private decision.  The problem becomes when they look at sedevacantism as a fact, so they create divisions in Tradition by saying that if you're not a sede then you are a heretic by association.  And the 100s of problems this causes...
    For the sake of example: With respect to the Eastern schismatics (the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox), and avowed schismatics in general, the determination of union with the pope and the Church of Rome is in the fact of whether the celebrant "prays for the pope" in the Canon of the Mass. He who does not name the Holy Father according to the prescribed words of the Canon, is considered to be in schism. His state and act of schism are demonstrated by the omission, by the absence, of words that ought to be said... - Who Shall Ascend?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #48 on: March 22, 2019, 09:01:52 AM »
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    For the sake of example: With respect to the Eastern schismatics (the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox), and avowed schismatics in general, the determination of union with the pope and the Church of Rome is in the fact of whether the celebrant "prays for the pope" in the Canon of the Mass. He who does not name the Holy Father according to the prescribed words of the Canon, is considered to be in schism. His state and act of schism are demonstrated by the omission, by the absence, of words that ought to be said... - Who Shall Ascend?
    I think it was Fr Gueranger, who had a doctrine in liturgy, said that this is not the meaning or purpose of that prayer.  You are not offering up the mass WITH the pope, but only FOR him.  The prayer also says, specifically, that it's for all "orthodox members of the catholic faith."  The idea that this prayer makes one have a connection with the pope or bishop's beliefs is a novelty. 
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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #49 on: March 22, 2019, 09:05:09 AM »
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    • "it suffices Us to be able to state that a commemoration of the supreme pontiff and prayers offered for him during the sacrifice of the Mass is considered, and really is, an affirmative indication which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter, and is the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity. This was rightly noticed by Christianus Lupus in his work on the Councils: “This commemoration is the chief and most glorious form of communion” (tome 4, p. 422, Brussels edition). This view is not merely approved by the authority of Ivo of Flaviniaca who writes: “Whosoever does not pronounce the name of the Apostolic one in the canon for whatever reason should realize that he is separated from the communion of the whole world” (Chronicle, p. 228); or by the authority of the famous Alcuin: “It is generally agreed that those who do not for any reason recall the memory of the Apostolic pontiff in the course of the sacred mysteries according to custom are, as the blessed Pelagius teaches, separated from the communion of the entire world” (de Divinis Officiis, bk. 1, chap. 12) ... The clear result of all this is that the Latin and Greek churches agree in recognizing and affirming that the commemoration implies a profession of due subjection to the Roman pontiff as head of the Church, and of a willingness to remain in the unity of the Church. On the other hand the omission of this commemoration signifies the intention of steadfastly espousing schism."

    (Ex Quo, Pope Benedict XIV, from Papal Encyclicals: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben14/b14exquo.htm)
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    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #50 on: March 22, 2019, 09:13:05 AM »
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    an affirmative indication which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter, and is the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity.

    Exactly.  All this prayer is doing is recognizing him as the pope (or at least, the occupier of the material/govt office).  It's not saying that the priest agrees with the pope's theology or his most recent encyclical or even his heretical remarks. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #51 on: March 22, 2019, 09:15:57 AM »
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    • The Encylical Ex Quo teaches:

    10. It has ever been customary in the Catholic Church to recite the name of the Roman pontiff during the sacred mysteries...

    ...When Pope Felix III could not ignore this and therefore deprived Acacius of communion, he had the audacity in the year of the Lord 484 to erase the name of the Roman pontiff Felix from the sacred diptychs in a new and hitherto unheard-of excess of rashness. For this reason the memory of Acacius was then condemned.

    But however it may be with this disputed point of ecclesiastical learning, it suffices Us to be able to state that a commemoration of the supreme pontiff and prayers offered for him during the sacrifice of the Mass is considered, and really is, an affirmative indication which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter, and is the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity. This was rightly noticed by Christianus Lupus in his work on the Councils: "This commemoration is the chief and most glorious form of communion" (tome 4, p. 422, Brussels edition). This view is not merely approved by the authority of Ivo of Flaviniaca who writes: "Whosoever does not pronounce the name of the Apostolic one in the canon for whatever reason should realize that he is separated from the communion of the whole world"...  

    ..."It is generally agreed that those who do not for any reason recall the memory of the Apostolic pontiff in the course of the sacred mysteries according to custom are, as the blessed Pelagius teaches, separated from the communion of the entire world" (de Divinis Officiis, bk. 1, chap. 12).
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #52 on: March 22, 2019, 09:18:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 22, 2019, 08:51:50 AM
    I think we have a different definition of "authoritative".

    Right.  Mine is the one taught by Catholic theologians.  I'm not sure where you come up with yours.  Within authoritative (or "authentic") there are fallible and infallible.

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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #53 on: March 22, 2019, 09:22:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 22, 2019, 09:13:05 AM
    Exactly.  All this prayer is doing is recognizing him as the pope (or at least, the occupier of the material/govt office).  It's not saying that the priest agrees with the pope's theology or his most recent encyclical or even his heretical remarks.
    Oops, did we forget this part, "the omission of this commemoration signifies the intention of steadfastly espousing schism"?

    There is no basis for doing that. If sedes have doubts, they should write to the Cardinals and Bishops and have it cleared.

    If they say they cannot do that, they inevitably end up denying in practice the Indefectibility of the Teaching Church.

    Also, there is nothing in the Pope's encyclical about a "material office". It is said if the world recognizes a man as Pope, we must do so also.

    Otherwise, we are separated from the communion of the entire world, i.e. of the universal Church. Do we want that? Of course not.

    So that should be a good enough reason to steer clear of SVism once and for all. Someone can raise doubts with the Episcopate. That is ok. You can write to or go visit your local diocesan Bishop and ask him, "Your Excellency, do you really recognize the Pope or not?"

    But then he or she has to abide by that judgment and accept it. If all residential Bishops assure us a man is Pope, he is certainly Pope. The Manuals and Theologians state this plainly and classify it as dogmatic fact coming under the Church's Indefectibility.

    Edit: And they already manifest that acceptance by praying for Pope Francis as Pope, since as Ex Quo itself reminds us, such "is, an affirmative indication which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter". The Bishops are indefectible when they collectively recognize the Pope as Head of the Church and Successor of St. Peter in this manner. Case closed.
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    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #54 on: March 22, 2019, 10:12:59 AM »
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    which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter, and is the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity.

    It's a recognition of his office, around which Catholics are unified.  It is NOT a recognition or an agreement (direct or indirect) of his personal theology, or his orthodoxy (or lack thereof).  Catholics are united to and through the papal office, not to the person who occupies the office.  This is why, assuming you believe that +Francis is pope, you are obligated to continue to pray for him, not because you agree with him, but because you owe his office respect for what it signifies spiritually.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #55 on: March 22, 2019, 10:20:44 AM »
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    Within authoritative (or "authentic") there are fallible and infallible.
    Ok, but you can further distinguish this idea.  Fallible/infallible has to do with doctrine.  But the pope can also be authoritative in non-doctrinal areas (i.e. using his power as temporal monarch and his universal jurisdiction in areas of law).  But, again, if someone in authority issues an unclear and ambigious order, is this an example of authority?  I would say no.  It would be like the parents of a teenager calling a family meeting to set rules regarding a weekend trip the teenager is going to take.  And the only rule they give is: "be a good person."  Ok, is that an example of authority?  Yes and no.  Yes in the sense that it's an order from authority but no, in the sense that there isn't anything concrete to follow.  One is left with much room for interpretation on how to "be a good person."  This is how I view V2 and the synod and many theolgians and Cardinals agree.
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    Right.  Mine is the one taught by Catholic theologians. 
    Can you give me a specific example of where/how is the Synod authoritative?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #56 on: March 22, 2019, 10:22:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 22, 2019, 10:12:59 AM
    It's a recognition of his office, around which Catholics are unified.  It is NOT a recognition or an agreement (direct or indirect) of his personal theology, or his orthodoxy (or lack thereof).  Catholics are united to and through the papal office, not to the person who occupies the office.  This is why, assuming you believe that +Francis is pope, you are obligated to continue to pray for him, not because you agree with him, but because you owe his office respect for what it signifies spiritually.
    .
    Well then if it's just a union with the office, sedevacantism should be no big deal :)
    .
    Who needs a pope when you have the papal office?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #57 on: March 22, 2019, 10:29:05 AM »
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    Also, there is nothing in the Pope's encyclical about a "material office".

    The distinguishment between the pope's material and spiritual office has been around for centuries.  The pope can lose his Faith just like any of us.  He can go to hell just like any of us.  If he were deemed an obstinate heretic by Church authorities, many theologians (including St Robert Bellarmine) say that he would lose his office.  Go read Cardinal Burke's comments on the problems of +Francis' heresies and how the "dubia" letter is meant to be a public correction of +Francis' error.  If +Francis (or any pope) preaches error, St Paul says they should be anathema.  No pope is above reproach or is a walking saint; if they preach error, they have created a schism by their lack of orthodoxy.

    Sedevacantists have legitimate gripes, concerns and facts on their side.  Yet we must wait for the Church to act, imo.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #58 on: March 22, 2019, 10:34:04 AM »
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    Well then if it's just a union with the office, sedevacantism should be no big deal
    .
    Who needs a pope when you have the papal office?
    The office is pointless without an occupant.  All priests are a symbol of Christ, and deserve respect for their office.  They may not deserve PERSONAL respect as individuals.  Do you not see the difference? 
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Robert Siscoe Article in 1 Pet 5: the one doctrine that proves Francis is Pope.
    « Reply #59 on: March 22, 2019, 10:57:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 22, 2019, 10:34:04 AM
    The office is pointless without an occupant.  All priests are a symbol of Christ, and deserve respect for their office.  They may not deserve PERSONAL respect as individuals.  Do you not see the difference?
    .
    I see a red herring.  No one resists Francis (or Benedict, or any of the others) because of their personal, private failings.  They resist them because they write modernist nonsense "encyclicals," because they make laws that promote communication in sacred things with heretics, because they designed and promoted (and continue to promote) protestanized liturgies, because they canonized revolutionaries, etc. These are not "personal" activities.
    .
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).
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