Quote from: Catholic Martyr

The only thing that my words should convey to you is that I do not generally presume anybody to be Catholic.

To be specific, I see that you hold the correct position of sedevacante, without which you would not be Catholic, not be united to Christ as one of His members.

As for the remainder of your beliefs, which either make or break your Catholicity, I have seen no profession one way or the other, thus have refrained from coming to any conclusion at all.

You are or you aren't Catholic, and I simply have no way of knowing (unless I scour your forum posts, but why on earth would I do that?).

What you are doing CM is entirely unCatholic. Nowhere does the Church, or the Saints, say that you should, by default, consider people who profess to be Catholic, to be non-Catholic until you have heard enough of their beliefs. That is an unCatholic invention. Jansenistic non-sense. You won't find anything but the opposite of that in Church history, teaching and practice. Your mind-frame on this opposes Scripture and the Saints who believed heartily people were Catholic who said they were, and who still believed people were Catholic even when they per chance were mistaken on something doctrinal. Martin Luther was considered a Catholic right up until his final and official condemnation by Rome. You entirely ignore the whole concept of pertinacity and how it is only determined by opposition to living Church authority alone. To find what you think is an opposing Church quote to what someone believes doesn't make one pertinacious and a non-Catholic.

All invention. Novelty. Modernists love that sort of thing.

You entirely ignore the whole concept of pertinacity and how it is only determined by opposition to living Church authority alone.

To find what you think is an opposing Church quote to what someone believes doesn't make one pertinacious and a non-Catholic.

All invention. Novelty. Modernists love that sort of thing.

Mirari Vos[/i]]Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that "there is one God, one faith, one baptism" may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever

They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that "those who are not with Christ are against Him," and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore "without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate."

Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: "He who is for the See of Peter is for me." A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: "The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?"

Graves Ac Diuturnae[/i]]In order to spread their teachings more widely, We know that some of them have been appointed to teach sacred theology in the University of Bern, hoping to be able in this way to gain new followers from the Catholic youth for their wicked faction. However, We have already reproved and condemned this deplorable sect which has produced from the old store of the heretics so many errors opposed to the principal tenets of the Catholic faith. This sect overthrows the foundations of the Catholic religion, shamelessly rejects the dogmatic definitions of the Ecuмenical Vatican Council, and devotes itself to the ruin of souls in so many ways. We have decreed and declared in Our letter of 21 November 1873 that those unfortunate men who belong to, adhere to, and support that sect should be considered as schismatics and separated from communion with the Church.

We think it is Our duty to repeat this public declaration now and to request you to preserve the unity of faith among your faithful by every possible means in accordance with your eminent zeal and your renowned virtue. For you have given notable examples of this virtue in bearing tribulations for the cause of God. You should remind them to beware of these treacherous enemies of the flock of Christ and their poisoned foods. They should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction. They should avoid them as strangers and thieves who come only to steal, slay, and destroy. For the Church's children should consider the proper action to preserve the most precious treasure of faith, without which it is impossible to please God, as well as action calculated to achieve the goal of faith, that is the salvation of their souls, by following the straight road of justice.

But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

Those who believe they are Catholic and who do not knowingly reject any doctrine or dogma of the faith are what would be called "Catholic at heart".  They would be saved by BOD as I hope you will be as I do not doubt your sincerity.  

And you would tell me to presume that everyone is a Catholic who claims to be, especially in this age of the Great APOSTASY, when such necessary dogmas as Christ's Divinity, for example, are explicitly denied by many claiming to be Catholics?

You betcha.  It is because of this time of Apostasy, when everything is more confusing that people can be considered Catholic in good faith.  They are so by their baptism and by not having knowingly rejected any doctrine.  We will assume that they believe in the Holy Trinity and are subject to the Pontiff or to whom the believe to be Pope.  

You waste countless hours straining gnats that get you nowhere but closer to hell as you mislead souls by trying to bind on the conscience of others things you clearly do not understand.  

Pope Gregory, in Mirari Vos said:
Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

Not relevant as we are considering those who are not indifferent but ignorant and who have reason to be so because of the confusing times we live in with no visible authority in the Church to guide us.  


He went on and said:
Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that "there is one God, one faith, one baptism" may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever

They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that "those who are not with Christ are against Him," and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore "without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate."

Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: "He who is for the See of Peter is for me." A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: "The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?"


Not relevant as we are considering those who do not think themselves to be schismatic.  He does not think that he "too" in addition to Catholics but thinks himself to Catholic and is so by baptism and by holding to the faith, the best he can without consciously rejecting a doctrine.

Pope Pius IX, in Graves Ac Diuturnae said:
In order to spread their teachings more widely, We know that some of them have been appointed to teach sacred theology in the University of Bern, hoping to be able in this way to gain new followers from the Catholic youth for their wicked faction. However, We have already reproved and condemned this deplorable sect which has produced from the old store of the heretics so many errors opposed to the principal tenets of the Catholic faith. This sect overthrows the foundations of the Catholic religion, shamelessly rejects the dogmatic definitions of the Ecuмenical Vatican Council, and devotes itself to the ruin of souls in so many ways. We have decreed and declared in Our letter of 21 November 1873 that those unfortunate men who belong to, adhere to, and support that sect should be considered as schismatics and separated from communion with the Church.


Irrelevant, as these people do not shamelessly reject doctrine but are not even aware of it.

He went on and said:
We think it is Our duty to repeat this public declaration now and to request you to preserve the unity of faith among your faithful by every possible means in accordance with your eminent zeal and your renowned virtue. For you have given notable examples of this virtue in bearing tribulations for the cause of God. You should remind them to beware of these treacherous enemies of the flock of Christ and their poisoned foods. They should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction. They should avoid them as strangers and thieves who come only to steal, slay, and destroy. For the Church's children should consider the proper action to preserve the most precious treasure of faith, without which it is impossible to please God, as well as action calculated to achieve the goal of faith, that is the salvation of their souls, by following the straight road of justice.

Not relevant as they believe they hold the Catholic faith and are worshipping in Catholic Churches.  

CM, you really have not been able to respond to the above points, perhaps because the logic I use above is sound.

During the confusing time of the "reformation" there was a Pope and there was no false Pope that the world thought to be valid.

God does not condemn those not culpable for erring with the rest of the world.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

He condemns the Pharisees because they know better but says the ignorant will have fewer stripes.

Truly you have demonstrated how BoD is a tool used for no other purpose than to promote salvation outside the Church.  

I'm aware I have a tendency to shut down argument, not inspire it.  That's why I should be a priest, not posting on the Internet, but all the bishops I know of are heretics, so...