Author Topic: RICHARD CUSHING,JESUITS HERESY : BAPTISM OF DESIRE IS EXPLICIT (Read 3445 times)

Raoul76 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 18, 2010, 04:07:20 AM »

Lionel, you are giving me vertigo.

1949 Letter of the Holy Office, Suprema Haec Sacra --

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"In its own way, the same thing must be said about the Church, insofar as the Church itself is a general help to salvation. Therefore, in order that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is required that at least he be united to it by intention and desire.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but, when a person is involved in invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit intention (votum) which is so called because it is included in that good disposition of the soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, “On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.” For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are really (in re) incorporated into the Church as members and those who are joined to it only in intention (in voto)."

Even Vatican II was never this definite on implicit faith being valid for salvation. This letter poses a massive problem. It unambigiously attempts to make salvation by implicit faith a dogma, something that was previously a theological speculation -- the problem is that this was done, or was attempted, under the auspices of a questionable Pope and a more than questionable future Cardinal who was a bigwig of the Vatican II Council.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #11 on:** June 18, 2010, 06:11:46 AM »

Here's my best interpretation:

What he means by "explicit" vs. "implicit", i.e. why "implicit" is O and "explicit" isn't, is that he means that if there's BoD it's known only to God and is completely hypothetical--similar to what Caminus has argued.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 18, 2010, 07:04:29 AM »

Yeah, I suggested that somewhere up there. Whatever. The Church situation doesn't need to be any more complicated than it already is and "explicit baptism of desire" is a venerable and accepted theological concept. I don't know if Lionel is trying to be clever, but everyone knows what "explicit baptism of desire" means. It doesn't mean we know for sure if anyone qualifies, because we don't see their heart at the moment of death; but from the external evidence, a catechumen has expressed the wish to be baptized, and if he dies would qualify for baptism of desire unless he underwent some kind of internal secret apostasy.

LionelAndrades · « **Reply #13 on:** June 18, 2010, 09:18:40 AM »

Praised be Jesus and Our Lady
1949 Letter of the Holy Office, Suprema Haec Sacra --

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"In its own way, the same thing must be said about the Church, insofar as the Church itself is a general help to salvation. Therefore, in order that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is required that at least he be united to it by intention and desire.

The Baptism of water and Catholic Faith is the normal,ordinary way to go to Heaven however 'in certain circuмstances'(Letter of the Holy Office 1949) a person can be saved with the baptism of desire etc.
So everyone needs to be an explicit member of the Catholic Church for salvation and there are no exceptions(explicitly) and if anyone is saved with implicit baptism of desire it is known to God.
Implicit baptism of desire should not be posited against the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Otherwise it then becomes the Cushing Doctrine, something which is not part of the deposit of the faith( the explicit baptism of desire which you can judge in the person before you).

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However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but, when a person is involved in invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit intention (votum) which is so called because it is included in that good disposition of the soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

So we accept baptism of desire in principle as implicit salvation.

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These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, “On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.” For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are really (in re) incorporated into the Church as members and those who are joined to it only in intention (in voto)."

1.Those who are incorporated with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith and
2. Those who are in invincible ignorance or have the baptism of water and are saved.

Even Vatican II was never this definite on implicit faith being valid for salvation. This letter poses a massive problem. It unambigiously attempts to make salvation by implicit faith a dogma, something that was previously a theological speculation --

It still is a theological speculation.However the Jєωιѕн Left media promoted it as a dogma after the Boston Case. They had the help of the Archbishops and the then Jesuits.Even today it is falsely posited as being part of the deposit of the faith. I agree with you.

the problem is that this was done, or was attempted, under the auspices of a questionable Pope and a more than questionable future Cardinal who was a bigwig of the Vatican II Council.

I think Pope Pius XII tried to rectify the situation but he had too much against him. The media was dominated by the Jєωιѕн Left and they kept repeating the lie. The Letter of the Holy Office was made public after some three years and that too on the Vatican's insistence.
In Christ
Lionel

LionelAndrades · « **Reply #14 on:** June 18, 2010, 09:28:05 AM »

"explicit baptism of desire" is a venerable and accepted theological concept.
It is 'veneralble' over the last 60-plus years and accepted if one reads the secular newspapers.
It was not so before the 1940's.
Anyway, rationally there is no explicit baptism of desire.Could you say that last month there were eight cases of the baptism of desire in Rome ? Can you judge who has genuine invincible ignorance?
I

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don't know if Lionel is trying to be clever, but everyone knows what "explicit baptism of desire" means

.
Catholics who read the false, calculated propaganda on this issue 'know there is the explicit baptism of desire'.

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It doesn't mean we know for sure if anyone qualifies, because we don't see their heart at the moment of death; but from the external evidence, a catechumen has expressed the wish to be baptized, and if he dies would qualify for baptism of desire unless he underwent some kind of internal secret apostasy.

The case of this catechumen is something we are discussing in principle.

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if he dies would qualify for baptism of desire unless he underwent some kind of internal secret apostasy.

God will decide only. For us this is just a conceptual case.