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Author Topic: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.  (Read 11958 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2019, 11:51:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 30, 2019, 11:48:39 AM
    The SSPX has always, with a few exceptions, held the position that one may attend the NOM if that's their only option. In light of all the bad that attending it has accomplished in such a short period of time, that position is altogether insane for them to even consider much less hold because by now, there should be no question that attending the evil thing, even passively, is a danger to one's soul and one must not put themself in that type of danger for any reason ever. Proof of this is all around us, literally.

    Back in the day, the position among most independent priests was this: Do not attend the NOM for any reason. God will not forsake you and will send you to a priest, or He will send a priest right to your front door so long as you remain faithful to Him. IOW, prove you are going to remain faithful and God will Provide. Going to the NOM for any reason demonstrates a decided lack of faith in God to provide the Mass for you, just as it is He who provides the same Mass for all those who have it.

    This is not even an idea to most (not all) of the SSPX priests that I know, it is in fact, something entirely lost on the majority of them far as I know.
    You're calling a Mass of the Church evil. That is in direct contradiction of Trent.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #16 on: July 30, 2019, 11:54:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 30, 2019, 11:51:00 AM
    You're calling a Mass of the Church evil. That is in direct contradiction of Trent.
    It is not a Mass of the Church, it is it's ape, called "mass", it is the mass of the conciliar church, not the Catholic Church - and it is evil.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #17 on: July 30, 2019, 03:56:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 30, 2019, 11:54:05 AM
    It is not a Mass of the Church, it is it's ape, called "mass", it is the mass of the conciliar church, not the Catholic Church - and it is evil.
    Is Pope Francis the head of the Catholic Church, the Conciliar Church, or both? 
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #18 on: July 30, 2019, 05:26:26 PM »
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    • "I propose there always has been one, say, (3) RPWR.

    "R&R" hardly describes all our rights and all our obligations as Traditional Catholics. Something much more in line with the thought of +ABL would be something like (1) Recognize (2) Pray (3) Work and lastly, (4) Restore.

    There is a limited sense in which Recognize and Resist is True. But there is more to it than that. I daresay if we focused on 2 and 3 more, 4 will be done and done quickly by God's help faster than it is now being done."

    Good Post! :incense: :pray:
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    Offline Joseantoniano

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #19 on: July 30, 2019, 11:44:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 30, 2019, 03:56:12 PM
    Is Pope Francis the head of the Catholic Church, the Conciliar Church, or both?
    He's not even a Pope. He's some kind of SJW Marxist who hates Catholicism.
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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #20 on: July 31, 2019, 06:05:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 30, 2019, 03:56:12 PM
    Is Pope Francis the head of the Catholic Church, the Conciliar Church, or both?
    This really is pointless forlorn because sedes cannot get to the first "R", so I will answer for those who are as confused as I once was myself, and/or those on the fence. The answer is of course, both.

    Listen for about a minute or two from the 1:13:39 mark to hear Fr. Hesse answer the same question. It is however, best to listen to the whole video to better understand why the answer is both.

    https://youtu.be/yFfnTdlrGK4?t=4419
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #21 on: July 31, 2019, 07:35:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 31, 2019, 06:05:03 AM
    This really is pointless forlorn because sedes cannot get to the first "R", so I will answer for those who are as confused as I once was myself, and/or those on the fence. The answer is of course, both.

    Listen for about a minute or two from the 1:13:39 mark to hear Fr. Hesse answer the same question. It is however, best to listen to the whole video to better understand why the answer is both.

    https://youtu.be/yFfnTdlrGK4?t=4419
    And so the rite of Novus Ordo was issued for only the "stupid club" and not the Catholic Church, despite the Pope saying it was for the latter? How do you determine this? 
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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #22 on: July 31, 2019, 08:17:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 31, 2019, 07:35:13 AM
    And so the rite of Novus Ordo was issued for only the "stupid club" and not the Catholic Church, despite the Pope saying it was for the latter? How do you determine this?
    I gave you the answer but like I said, it's best to listen to the whole video to help you better understand how to arrive at that  answer. So you determine this by listening to the whole video.

    The main reason that many of the Catholic people did not then, and will not now accept the answer, is due to a false understanding of papal infallibility.

    People have been misled, mostly by theologians far as I can tell, into believing that a pope speaking as pope cannot teach or fall into heresy, some add to that idea the belief that the pope, even as a private individual cannot fall into heresy. Generally, most (all?) sedes believe this is actually a doctrine of the Church, even an infallible dogma. But per V1, this whole idea is altogether wrong, possibly even heretical. If it is heretical, it is because this false doctrine largely ignores the defined dogma that V1 clearly spelled out, and replaces it with the above false doctrine, resulting in a false understanding of papal infallibility, which for many, results in sedevacantism or NOism.







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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #23 on: July 31, 2019, 08:44:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 31, 2019, 08:17:11 AM
    I gave you the answer but like I said, it's best to listen to the whole video to help you better understand how to arrive at that  answer. So you determine this by listening to the whole video.

    The main reason that many of the Catholic people did not then, and will not now accept the answer, is due to a false understanding of papal infallibility.

    People have been misled, mostly by theologians far as I can tell, into believing that a pope speaking as pope cannot teach or fall into heresy, some add to that idea the belief that the pope, even as a private individual cannot fall into heresy. Generally, most (all?) sedes believe this is actually a doctrine of the Church, even an infallible dogma. But per V1, this whole idea is altogether wrong, possibly even heretical. If it is heretical, it is because this false doctrine largely ignores the defined dogma that V1 clearly spelled out, and replaces it with the above false doctrine, resulting in a false understanding of papal infallibility, which for many, results in sedevacantism or NOism.
    No, you didn't answer how the NOM was only promulgated for the new secret club and not the Catholic Church which the Missal said it was promulgated for. This Papal Infallibility spiel is a complete non-sequitur. Just because the Pope is fallible doesn't mean that Stubborn gets to decide which laws and promulgations of his actually apply to the Catholic Church, and which apply to the secret club. 
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #24 on: July 31, 2019, 09:17:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 31, 2019, 08:44:08 AM
    No, you didn't answer how the NOM was only promulgated for the new secret club and not the Catholic Church which the Missal said it was promulgated for. This Papal Infallibility spiel is a complete non-sequitur. Just because the Pope is fallible doesn't mean that Stubborn gets to decide which laws and promulgations of his actually apply to the Catholic Church, and which apply to the secret club.
    The enemies infiltrated the Church, they invented a new Rite with a new "mass" and perpetrated it on the people while they  suppressed the true Mass. Not sure what you're getting at, unless you don't already know this.

    Our Lord cautioned us to beware of the Church's enemies, to not listen to them. That is how not just I, that is how we all must always decide which laws and promulgations actually apply to the Catholic Church - especially when we *know* the enemies have infiltrated the Church.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #25 on: July 31, 2019, 10:10:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 31, 2019, 09:17:11 AM
    The enemies infiltrated the Church, they invented a new Rite with a new "mass" and perpetrated it on the people while they  suppressed the true Mass. Not sure what you're getting at, unless you don't already know this.

    Our Lord cautioned us to beware of the Church's enemies, to not listen to them. That is how not just I, that is how we all must always decide which laws and promulgations actually apply to the Catholic Church - especially when we *know* the enemies have infiltrated the Church.
    I see. And what of the new rite of ordination, are NO priests valid priests?
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #26 on: July 31, 2019, 10:32:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 31, 2019, 10:10:31 AM
    I see. And what of the new rite of ordination, are NO priests valid priests?
    Far as I'm concerned, NO ordinations are doubtful, that all the reason needed to entirely avoid them.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #27 on: July 31, 2019, 02:43:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 31, 2019, 10:32:24 AM
    Far as I'm concerned, NO ordinations are doubtful, that all the reason needed to entirely avoid them.
    So then Pope Francis' ordination was therefore doubtful, correct? 
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #28 on: July 31, 2019, 03:39:46 PM »
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    • One has to take into account the sad fact that the novus ordo of 2019 is much worse than that of the last year of Archbishop Lefebvre’s life, 1991.  The last one I attended was in November of last year, a funeral I attended out of professional obligation.  Just as I feared, the deceased’s casket was draped in white and the priest wore white vestments resembling satin sheets for a king bed.  And yes, there was a eulogy in which one of the daughters proclaimed the dead to be in Heaven.  This was a person, who, to my knowledge, rarely, if ever went to mass or practiced any form of religion.  It was the Protestant daughter’s wishful thinking her loved one was in Heaven.  Also very disturbing was the modernist architecture and decor.  There were no stations of the cross, no statues, not even Holy water founts or anything resembling a confessional that I could see.  There was a pervy rainbow poster on the bulletin board in the lobby and a metal sculpture (?) of Christ (?) on the lawn.  It looked very Soviet.  To be fair, I did not do a close inspection.  I came in a bit late and sat in the back.  Afterwards, I offered my condolences to my colleague and excused myself early because of the distance I had to drive and need to be to work at 7:00 am next morning.  Was Jesus present?  I kind of hope not, but I did the novus ordo nod just in case.  
    My “position” is that of a very skeptical R&R.  Is there such a thing as a Sede Agnostic?  
    Overall, the experience was unsettling.  No, I DO NOT attend the n.o. to obey the third commandment.  One cannot hear mass in a place that disturbs the soul.  I couldn’t wait to leave and it was a relief when I did so.
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    Re: Restoring the Third True Traditionalist position beside SV&R&R: RPWR.
    « Reply #29 on: July 31, 2019, 03:41:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 31, 2019, 02:43:48 PM
    So then Pope Francis' ordination was therefore doubtful, correct?
    I have no idea but as far as my opinion, as far as I'm concerned, his ordination is also doubtful. But if he was ordained validly or not is altogether irrelevant any way, we may not listen to him as long as he preaches heresy, so that really makes no difference to traditional Catholics.

    Like you said, and like most (all?) trads do, I will just continue to ignore whatever the Pope says or preaches. In the unlikely event he says something Catholic, I am quite sure it'll make the news or be broadcasted here on CI, at which time I would listen to what he has to say.

    As for me personally, I do my Catholic duty and pray for him daily, that is what we are bound to do whether he is a heretic or not.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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