Author Topic: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?  (Read 1800 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2020, 09:37:53 PM »
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  • Sedeapocryphist – Since none of us has the authority to decide, a Sedeapocryphist
    is one who believes that the Chair of Peter is occupied by one of questionable
    authenticity, and that the Conciliar church with its, own liturgy, sacramental
    consecrations, rejection of Ex-Cathedra Papal Encyclicals, and belief in universal
    redemption and evolving faith, is unlikely Catholic. A change in belief and practice
    constitutes a new religion.
    .
    I prefer the term sedeagnostic for people who don't know if Francis is the pope or not. It seems more precise to me.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #61 on: January 13, 2020, 09:54:11 PM »
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  • .
    Hey, it's okay, man. We're all friends here. We're just talking. No one is saying you're a heretic. The problem is Bergoglio, not people on CathInfo. ;)
    I thought Poche was Bergoglio's account lol.  


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #62 on: January 13, 2020, 09:56:16 PM »
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  • .
    I prefer the term sedeagnostic for people who don't know if Francis is the pope or not. It seems more precise to me.
    Sededoubitst is the term Ladislaus uses, and I like it, but I still think its tricky.  Like *technically* you could call me that (as I acknowledge the hypothetical possibility that the Church might rule one or more of these men to not be Popes) but it seems far more likely to me that the Chair is occupied and we just have a crappy situation.  So I think its more accurate to call me a Sedeplenist.  That said if I were a priest and it was up to me, I don't think I'd be inclined to deny Sedevacantists who held the position in good faith and weren't actively promoting it in the chapel from communing.  So I guess I lean against *dogmatic* sedeplenism.  But I could be convinced that I'm wrong there I guess.

    Putting everyone who has the smallest sliver of doubt in the same category seems weak.

    Online Clemens Maria

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #63 on: January 13, 2020, 10:42:12 PM »
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  • I wasn't treating it with nonchalance, and I meant what I said.  Sedevacantists are most certainly not Catholics.  One of the errors of the Traditional movement has been treating sedevacantism as nothing but an opinion.  It may have seemed like that at one time, but the consequences show how false that notion was.   Sedevacantism is a heresy, and the sedevacantist heretics are amongst the worst enemies of the Catholic Church today.   You and I are not in the same Church.  We have two different religions, and yours is false.  
    Actually your Conciliar religion is the false religion.  But I do agree that we are not in the same religion.  You are a member of a religion led by a part-time Lutheran minister.  I’m a member of the Catholic Church.  The clergy of the Catholic Church are ordained and consecrated in the rites that have always been used by the Catholic Church.  Your clergy are ordained and consecrated in a new non-Catholic rite.  Catholics follow the 1917 Code of Canon Law.  Your religion follows the non-Catholic 1983 code.  Catholic clergy pray the Church’s Divine Liturgy.  Your clergy pray a new non-Catholic liturgy of the hours.  The Catholic Church’s clerics are generally very holy.  Your Conciliar clergy are more than 50% active homosexuals and your bishops are almost all homosexuals.  I’m in agreement with the SSPX of 1988 - I’m honored to be excommunicated from your unholy Conciliar religion.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #64 on: January 14, 2020, 04:49:17 AM »
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  • I thought Poche was Bergoglio's account lol.  
    Now, now, we can't keep picking on poor, poor poche.  
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #65 on: January 14, 2020, 05:40:29 AM »
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  • Actually your Conciliar religion is the false religion.  But I do agree that we are not in the same religion.  You are a member of a religion led by a part-time Lutheran minister.  I’m a member of the Catholic Church.  The clergy of the Catholic Church are ordained and consecrated in the rites that have always been used by the Catholic Church.  Your clergy are ordained and consecrated in a new non-Catholic rite.  Catholics follow the 1917 Code of Canon Law.  Your religion follows the non-Catholic 1983 code.  Catholic clergy pray the Church’s Divine Liturgy.  Your clergy pray a new non-Catholic liturgy of the hours.  The Catholic Church’s clerics are generally very holy.  Your Conciliar clergy are more than 50% active homosexuals and your bishops are almost all homosexuals.  I’m in agreement with the SSPX of 1988 - I’m honored to be excommunicated from your unholy Conciliar religion.
    Clemens, good reply, but this ignoramus is looking to get a rise out of us and he should just be ignored.

    Online Clemens Maria

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #66 on: January 14, 2020, 07:41:43 AM »
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  • Actually your Conciliar religion is the false religion.  But I do agree that we are not in the same religion.  You are a member of a religion led by a part-time Lutheran minister.  I’m a member of the Catholic Church.  The clergy of the Catholic Church are ordained and consecrated in the rites that have always been used by the Catholic Church.  Your clergy are ordained and consecrated in a new non-Catholic rite.  Catholics follow the 1917 Code of Canon Law.  Your religion follows the non-Catholic 1983 code.  Catholic clergy pray the Church’s Divine Liturgy.  Your clergy pray a new non-Catholic liturgy of the hours.  The Catholic Church’s clerics are generally very holy.  Your Conciliar clergy are more than 50% active homosexuals and your bishops are almost all homosexuals.  I’m in agreement with the SSPX of 1988 - I’m honored to be excommunicated from your unholy Conciliar religion.


    I guess we could say by their "fruits" we shall know them.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #67 on: January 14, 2020, 07:56:57 AM »
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  • I guess we could say by their "fruits" we shall know them.
    :laugh1:


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #68 on: January 14, 2020, 06:35:10 PM »
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  • Now, now, we can't keep picking on poor, poor poche.  
    TBH I purely did this as a joke.  The controversy doesn't matter to me that much one way or another.

    Offline Guardian

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #69 on: January 14, 2020, 07:25:14 PM »
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  • Yeti:  Thank you for suggesting the term sedeagnostic.  I had not come across that term and I am glad to learn it.  I don't believe there is a word, sedeapocryphist, so truthfully, I thought I was bringing in a new word to describe someone who holds that the seat of Peter is occupied by one of doubtful authenticity.  A key part of this is who is and who is not in a position to say with any certainty?  Never-the-less, here's my thinking.  Is it possible to identify a heretic?  I think it is.  If it is, then even one occupying the seat of Peter, unwilling to recant of heretical statements, could be aptly identified as a heretic.  So, the next question to contemplate is whether one unwilling to recant of heresy can be aptly seen as a Catholic?  I do not think someone can be a willful heretic and a Catholic.  And if being a heretic and a Catholic are not compatible, the final question is how could it be possible for a heretic, who is not a Catholic, to occupy the seat of Peter and be authentically recognized as the Pope?  Anyway, that's my logic.  I believe that God can use a heretic to bring the faithful closer to Him, or to test His flock's faith, and perhaps that is what He is doing.  I also believe we are called to use common sense, logic, and reasoning to direct our thinking, our faith, and our actions.  

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #70 on: January 15, 2020, 11:10:26 AM »
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  • Conciliar Church is a rhetorical device. We say Cardinal Sarah represents the Catholic Church while Kasper et al represent the Conciliar Church. It is not to be misunderstood that the Conciliar Church is like, for e.g. the Orthodox Churches, or the Protestant communities.

    Anyone who thinks the Pope and the Bishops appointed by him, are not in general the Catholic Church, but some "Conciliar Church", are just using terms wrongly. It reminds me of Orthodox calling the Catholic Church, "the Papal Church", of Old Catholics calling the Catholic Church, "the Infallibilist Church", of some people who were opposed to mistakes made in negotiating Concordats, "The Concordatist Church" and so on. Read the Catechism of His Holiness Pope St. Pius X and you will see what the Catholic Church is and how you identify Her. Although written a century ago, the same means the Holy Father wrote of then can still be used to identify the Church today.

    This is Rev. Fr. Jean Michel Gleize, Seminary Professor of Ecclesiology at Econe: https://fsspx.news/en/content/23744

    "Eleventh, Bishop Fellay9 recently stated that the contemporary Church, as represented by the Roman authorities, remains the true Church, one, Catholic, holy, and apostolic. “When we say extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, out of the Church, no salvation, it is indeed to the Church of today that we refer. That fact is absolutely certain. We must cling to it. […} Going to Rome does not mean we agree with them. But Rome is the Church, and the true Church10.” He speaks further of “the Church, which is not an idea, which is real, which stands before us, which we call the Roman Catholic Church, the Church, with its pope, its bishops, debilitated as they may be ... 

    The emphasis on the concrete reality of the contemporary Church is only intended to show that in spite of everything, the Church holds the promise of eternal salvation. “In rejecting what is wrong, we must not reject everything. The Church remains one, holy, Catholic and apostolic. […] When we reject the evil found in the Church, we must not conclude that it is no longer the Church. Large parts of it are no longer the Church, true. But not all of it ... And the same dual concept is expressed in the metaphor of an invalid, as used by Bishop Fellay at the last Congress of Courrier de Rome: “The Catholic Church is our Church. We have no other. There is no other. The Good God has allowed it to become diseased. For this reason we try to avoid contagion ourselves. But for all that we are not trying to form another Church. […] The disease is a disease; it is not the Church itself. It is within the Church, but the Church remains itself. […] Certainly, we must fight the disease. But this diseased Church is indeed the Church founded by Our Lord. It alone holds the promise of eternal life. To it alone has been promised that the gates of hell will not prevail42.” We can therefore speak of a ‘conciliar Church’, in order to indicate that among the leaders of the Church and among many of its faithful there is an orientation or a spirit that are foreign to the Church and obstruct its good. (Courrier de Rome B.P 10158 – 78001 Versailles Cedex – Fax 01 49 62 85 91 – Email: courrierderome@wanadoo.fr)"
    "Take my advice and every day in Mass ask God to make you a great Saint"-St. Leonard. Go for Holy Mass every day to receive the Holy Body and Precious Blood of God. Do never skip Holy Mass for even one single day, if you want to become a Saint, as the Saints tell us, we should all aspire to become.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #71 on: January 15, 2020, 11:34:23 AM »
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  • "Eleventh, Bishop Fellay9 recently stated that the contemporary Church, as represented by the Roman authorities, remains the true Church, one, Catholic, holy, and apostolic. “When we say extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, out of the Church, no salvation, it is indeed to the Church of today that we refer."

    So +Fellay will be held accountable for all those souls who have been lost outside this Church as a result of his heading up the SSPX.

    Online Clemens Maria

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #72 on: January 15, 2020, 03:15:39 PM »
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  • XavierSem must have skimmed over Sean's post on page 1 of this thread:

    From the Dominicans of Avrille (http://www.dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/):

    Quote
    To affirm that the official church is the Catholic Church, – something which Archbishop Lefebvre never did – leads one to look for an official recognition, because one cannot remain outside of the Catholic Church. With his new manner of speaking, this is exactly what Bishop Fellay is trying to persuade the priests and faithful to do, and that puts Tradition in grave danger.

    So Ladislaus certainly has a point in accusing XavierSem of schism.  He is neither consistent with Archbishop Lefebvre nor with his hero Burke.  As Archbishop Lefebvre used to say, to the extent that you adhere to the Conciliar Church, you separate yourself from the Catholic Church.  The only ones denying the existence of the Conciliar Church are those who desire to pass it off as the Catholic Church.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #73 on: January 15, 2020, 03:28:46 PM »
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  • Conciliar Church is a rhetorical device. We say Cardinal Sarah represents the Catholic Church while Kasper et al represent the Conciliar Church. 
    Really?  Cardinal Sarah doesn't represent the Conciliar Church? Doesn't he accept Vatican II (ie. "the Council") 100%? Is this what the SSPX now believes?
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #74 on: January 15, 2020, 05:09:37 PM »
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  • Conciliar Church is a rhetorical device. We say Cardinal Sarah represents the Catholic Church while Kasper et al represent the Conciliar Church. It is not to be misunderstood that the Conciliar Church is like, for e.g. the Orthodox Churches, or the Protestant communities.

    Anyone who thinks the Pope and the Bishops appointed by him, are not in general the Catholic Church, but some "Conciliar Church", are just using terms wrongly. It reminds me of Orthodox calling the Catholic Church, "the Papal Church", of Old Catholics calling the Catholic Church, "the Infallibilist Church", of some people who were opposed to mistakes made in negotiating Concordats, "The Concordatist Church" and so on. Read the Catechism of His Holiness Pope St. Pius X and you will see what the Catholic Church is and how you identify Her. Although written a century ago, the same means the Holy Father wrote of then can still be used to identify the Church today.

    This is Rev. Fr. Jean Michel Gleize, Seminary Professor of Ecclesiology at Econe: https://fsspx.news/en/content/23744

    "Eleventh, Bishop Fellay9 recently stated that the contemporary Church, as represented by the Roman authorities, remains the true Church, one, Catholic, holy, and apostolic. “When we say extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, out of the Church, no salvation, it is indeed to the Church of today that we refer. That fact is absolutely certain. We must cling to it. […} Going to Rome does not mean we agree with them. But Rome is the Church, and the true Church10.” He speaks further of “the Church, which is not an idea, which is real, which stands before us, which we call the Roman Catholic Church, the Church, with its pope, its bishops, debilitated as they may be ...

    The emphasis on the concrete reality of the contemporary Church is only intended to show that in spite of everything, the Church holds the promise of eternal salvation. “In rejecting what is wrong, we must not reject everything. The Church remains one, holy, Catholic and apostolic. […] When we reject the evil found in the Church, we must not conclude that it is no longer the Church. Large parts of it are no longer the Church, true. But not all of it ... And the same dual concept is expressed in the metaphor of an invalid, as used by Bishop Fellay at the last Congress of Courrier de Rome: “The Catholic Church is our Church. We have no other. There is no other. The Good God has allowed it to become diseased. For this reason we try to avoid contagion ourselves. But for all that we are not trying to form another Church. […] The disease is a disease; it is not the Church itself. It is within the Church, but the Church remains itself. […] Certainly, we must fight the disease. But this diseased Church is indeed the Church founded by Our Lord. It alone holds the promise of eternal life. To it alone has been promised that the gates of hell will not prevail42.” We can therefore speak of a ‘conciliar Church’, in order to indicate that among the leaders of the Church and among many of its faithful there is an orientation or a spirit that are foreign to the Church and obstruct its good. (Courrier de Rome B.P 10158 – 78001 Versailles Cedex – Fax 01 49 62 85 91 – Email: courrierderome@wanadoo.fr)"

    It was against the position of Fr. Gleize that Bishop Tissier wrote the article I posted on P.1 of this thread.

    As for Bishop Fellay, he believes the "official" (i.e., conciliar) church = the Catholic Church.

    This is because, as a means to achieving his ralliement, he must do away with distinguishing in any substantive manner between the conciliar and Catholic Church: How could he explain joining the former when Archbishop Lefebvre so famously stressed the duty to remain separate from it?

    In this regard, Bishop Fellay utterly rejects Archbishop Lefebvre, and multiple priests could testify that in the retreats Bishop Fellay preaches to priests, in the reading of Spiritual Journey, Bishop Fellay skips right over the famous command of Lefebvre that “It is, therefore, a strict duty for every priest wanting to remain Catholic to separate himself from this Conciliar Church for as long as it does not rediscover the tradition of the Church and of the Catholic Faith.” (Abp. Lefebvre, Spiritual Journey, p. 13).

    Bishop Fellay is a traitor, and he knows it.

    That's why he skips that passage in the retreats he preaches to priests:

    He doesn't want them to perceive the contradiction between Lefebvre and himself.

    And they, for the most part, don't read Lefebvre anyway (at least not his polemical works: They are semi-conscious that it is a thought-crime, and steer clear of him), so the "oversight" passes without a glitch; perhaps a momentary discomfort, until CRIMETHINK smothers any remaining tremors of cognitve dissonance.

    XS is giving you neo-SSPX doctrine (contradicted by 40 years testimony to the contrary).
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


     

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