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Author Topic: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?  (Read 3131 times)

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Online Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2020, 07:16:46 PM »
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    • You know Praeter, this is not fun and games. This is the most serious topic that anyone on this Earth could discuss. You treat it with such nonchalance that I’m embarrassed for you. Your pope, the man who is supposedly the one who holds the keys of the Kingdom, says that I can be saved in any religion whatsoever. In fact, he even says that atheists can be saved!

    If you truly profess the Catholic Faith, I suggest you drop this charade, stop posting and start praying. You are playing with fire, pal and it seems you are too dumb to know it or you just don’t care. People’s immortal souls are at stake!

    Now I’m done with you.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #46 on: January 13, 2020, 07:34:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on January 13, 2020, 06:34:12 PM


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    I even believe that there are some hierarchs who too are in material error only and therefore legitimately exercise jurisdiction.  
    You just contradicted yourself.  How can they have jurisdiction if they belong to a false Church?  They can't.  You just implicitly admitted that you believe the entity you call the Conciliar Church is really the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.  


     
    Yes, it seems like a contradiction to me. How can a prelate in a false church exercise legitimate jurisdiction?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #47 on: January 13, 2020, 07:35:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on January 13, 2020, 06:34:12 PM
    If by "in the Novus Ordo" you mean to include Traditional Catholics, you are making the false assumption that they are in material error.

    No, my definition of Novus Ordo doesn't include Traditional Catholics (unless you consider FSSP or other Motarian groups to be Traditional).  I'm not assuming that they ARE in material, but asserting that they MAY be in material error.  There are many good-willed souls in the Conciliar Church who hold whatever errors they do simply because they THINK it has been taught by the Church; that is the very definition of material error.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #48 on: January 13, 2020, 07:37:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on January 13, 2020, 07:34:25 PM
    You just contradicted yourself.  How can they have jurisdiction if they belong to a false Church?  They can't.  You just implicitly admitted that you believe the entity you call the Conciliar Church is really the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.  



     
    Yes, it seems like a contradiction to me. How can a prelate in a false church exercise legitimate jurisdiction?

    In attempting to equate the Conciliar Church with the Catholic Church, contradictions are inevitable, since those two do contradict one another.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #49 on: January 13, 2020, 07:40:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on January 13, 2020, 06:34:12 PM
    You just contradicted yourself.  How can they have jurisdiction if they belong to a false Church?  They can't.  You just implicitly admitted that you believe the entity you call the Conciliar Church is really the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.  

    No, this is according to the distinction of sedeprivationism.  They are materially in the Conciliar Church but still formally Catholic.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #50 on: January 13, 2020, 07:55:06 PM »
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    • The great prophets of the OT indicted the priests and rulers of Israel for apostasy and idolatry; there were periods when they offered sacrifices to false gods and even sacrificed their children to Moloch. I'm hoping you're beginning to see a resemblance to Francis here. The great prophets rightly decried those actions with burning, vigorous denunciations. And yet . . .

    In his book The Catholic Controversy, saint and doctor of the Church, St. Francis DeSales, made this true observation: "the authority of the extraordinary mission never destroys the ordinary and is never given to overthrow it. Witness all the Prophets, who never set up altar against altar, never overthrew the priesthood of Aaron, never abolished the constitutions of the ѕуηαgσgυє. Witness Our Lord, who declares that every kingdom divided against itself shall be brought to desolation, and a house upon a house shall fall (Luke xi.17). Witness the respect which he paid to the chair of Moses, the doctrine of which he would have to be observed."

    And I add, He said the Pharisees sat in Moses's seat, and yet they were of the party of hell, a brood of vipers, making the word of God void by their tradition (Mark 7). 

    Mark : In observing their traditions, He said they made the word of God void. Void. And yet he commanded they be obeyed. 

    Food for thought.  
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #51 on: January 13, 2020, 07:58:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2020, 07:37:43 PM
    In attempting to equate the Conciliar Church with the Catholic Church, contradictions are inevitable, since those two do contradict one another.
    Not according to Biblical precedent, i.e. Israel. Apostasy, idolatry, you name it . . . and yet salvation was of the Jєωs. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #52 on: January 13, 2020, 08:13:02 PM »
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    • Quote
    The NO church is all over the map. Their adherents only agree on one thing, that it’s not necessary to be inside the Church to be saved.
    Uhhh.... no?

    I mean leaving aside the fact that there are plenty of non Feeneyites (you know what I mean) who still do believe in extra ecclesiam (and I acknowledge some people don't), honestly most people who do take the hardline Feeneyite position are also in the Novus Ordo I think...

    Note that that's not an argument for or against it one way or another. Just pointing out how it is.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #53 on: January 13, 2020, 08:14:10 PM »
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    • I'll admit, and I admit that I'm not the expert here, but the "paleo SSPX' position as expressed in the OP has always confused me.  That said what if one viewed it as more like a Venn Diagram?  ie. overlap between the True and the Conciliar Churches with some "non overlap" on each side.
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #54 on: January 13, 2020, 08:14:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2020, 07:40:37 PM
    No, this is according to the distinction of sedeprivationism.  They are materially in the Conciliar Church but still formally Catholic.
    This is entirely confused. 
     Above, you distinguished between the Conciliar Church, and the bishops who you said were still "formally Catholic."  But what we are talking about is the Church itself (which you called the Conciliar Church).  In the absurd sedeprivationlist theory, the matter and form pertain to how the bishops possess of the see (formally or only materially); it does not pertain to the individual person who possesses it.  So your statement that the person is "formally Catholic" doesn't make sense.
    The question is, do these "formally Catholic" bishops possess sees belonging to the Catholic Church or the imaginary Conciliar Church?   If the sees belong to the Conciliar Church, the bishops who are in material possession of them cannot have jurisdiction.   


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    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #55 on: January 13, 2020, 08:17:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on January 13, 2020, 07:55:06 PM
    Witness all the Prophets, who never set up altar against altar, never overthrew the priesthood of Aaron, never abolished the constitutions of the ѕуηαgσgυє. 
    Not even when Aaron was involved in the idolatry of worshiping the golden calf.  
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    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #56 on: January 13, 2020, 08:24:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on January 13, 2020, 07:16:46 PM
    You know Praeter, this is not fun and games. This is the most serious topic that anyone on this Earth could discuss. You treat it with such nonchalance that I’m embarrassed for you.

    I wasn't treating it with nonchalance, and I meant what I said.  Sedevacantists are most certainly not Catholics.  One of the errors of the Traditional movement has been treating sedevacantism as nothing but an opinion.  It may have seemed like that at one time, but the consequences show how false that notion was.   Sedevacantism is a heresy, and the sedevacantist heretics are amongst the worst enemies of the Catholic Church today.   You and I are not in the same Church.  We have two different religions, and yours is false.  
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    "Schismatics are in another Church even if they agree with the true Church of Christ in faith and doctrine." (Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante cap v)

    Offline Guardian

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #57 on: January 13, 2020, 08:28:49 PM »
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    • Sedeapocryphist – Since none of us has the authority to decide, a Sedeapocryphist
    is one who believes that the Chair of Peter is occupied by one of questionable
    authenticity, and that the Conciliar church with its, own liturgy, sacramental
    consecrations, rejection of Ex-Cathedra Papal Encyclicals, and belief in universal
    redemption and evolving faith, is unlikely Catholic. A change in belief and practice
    constitutes a new religion.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #58 on: January 13, 2020, 09:29:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on January 13, 2020, 08:24:15 PM
    I wasn't treating it with nonchalance, and I meant what I said.  Sedevacantists are most certainly not Catholics.  One of the errors of the Traditional movement has been treating sedevacantism as nothing but an opinion.  It may have seemed like that at one time, but the consequences show how false that notion was.   Sedevacantism is a heresy, and the sedevacantist heretics are amongst the worst enemies of the Catholic Church today.   You and I are not in the same Church.  We have two different religions, and yours is false.  
    Wait, how is it heresy?  According to this source: http://www.the-pope.com/theolnotes.html  Even in ordinary times rejection of the clear papal claimant is *error* not heresy...

    I'm curious what you think of various positions on the spectrum.  For instance, I believe that we should presume that Francis is a real pope, and act accordingly, I think that's most likely and safest, but I do conclude the *possibility* that the Church *might* eventually tell us he's an imposter.  Do you believe I'm outside the Church for that reason?

    I think also there are two separate issues here.  Whether the identity of the papal claimant is currently a dogmatic fact, and also what is to be done about those who err in good faith about the question.  Given that Archbishop Lefebvre certainly wavered here, and I think everyone here would agree he was a good (though not perfect) Catholic, I have a really hard time believing that error in good faith is an automatic ticket to Hell.  Now I will grant I think its pretty reckless to go the more extreme sededoubtist or especially dogmatic sedevacantist routes, but I'm still content leaving the judgment of such souls to God, who is merciful and desires all men to be saved.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #59 on: January 13, 2020, 09:36:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on January 13, 2020, 08:24:15 PM
    I wasn't treating it with nonchalance, and I meant what I said.  Sedevacantists are most certainly not Catholics.  One of the errors of the Traditional movement has been treating sedevacantism as nothing but an opinion.  It may have seemed like that at one time, but the consequences show how false that notion was.   Sedevacantism is a heresy, and the sedevacantist heretics are amongst the worst enemies of the Catholic Church today.   You and I are not in the same Church.  We have two different religions, and yours is false.  
    .
    Hey, it's okay, man. We're all friends here. We're just talking. No one is saying you're a heretic. The problem is Bergoglio, not people on CathInfo. ;)
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