Author Topic: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church? (Read 11459 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2020, 09:29:59 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 13, 2020, 09:11:01 AM

Here are a few Fr Wathen quotes, which are very similar to what Bishop Tissier says:
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Fr. James Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?, p. 414: “The reader is implored to believe that as it is in the spirit of Christian charity that we have been compelled to proclaim the Catholic Church to be the sole and exclusive instrument of salvation for men on earth, it is in the same spirit that we assert the major thesis of this third part, namely, the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who maintains membership within it can be saved.”
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Fr. James Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?, p. 637: “Contrary to such reasoning, it is within the Conciliar Establishment that one finds the historical and structural continuity of the True Church; even though they are serving Satan, those who hold ecclesiastical offices hold them legitimately.”
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Again, this distinction is very much in line with sedeprivationism. This "historical and structural continuity [with] the True Church" is precisely what sedeprivationism refers to as the "material" Church.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2020, 09:48:49 AM »

I've read +Tissier's article, and I have to say that I found it to be a bunch of nonsense and totally uncompelling.

Only materially can he belong to both Churches, but not formally. Formally he must be either one or the other, and everyone knows which one he belongs to.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2020, 09:53:20 AM »

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+Fellay characterizes the Conciliar Church as NOT being a brand new religion but being substantially Catholic, with some some problems that need to be fixed.

To be fair, +Fellay changes his opinion based on the audience. So he holds the above when talking to pro-new-rome people, but he will quote +ABL when talking to true Trads.

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Again, this distinction is very much in line with sedeprivationism. This "historical and structural continuity [with] the True Church" is precisely what sedeprivationism refers to as the "material" Church.

I agree. Fr Wathen was very clear that he was against sedevacantism, 1) because none us has authority to decide, 2) it's a distraction from our daily duties to God. I don't know if Fr was ever confronted with the term 'sedeprivationism'; I would think he would agree with it (as he obviously believed its details). But he always seemed more concentrated on dealing with the Great Conspiracy, which affects ALL aspects of society (the Church, politics, society, the economy etc), much more than just the papal question.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2020, 09:56:17 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 13, 2020, 09:53:20 AM

To be fair, +Fellay changes his opinion based on the audience. So he holds the above when talking to pro-new-rome people, but he will quote +ABL when talking to true Trads.

Has he, though, in the past few years referenced ANY of the more hard-line +Lefebvre quotes? I would think he'd be very reluctant to do so ... lest it get back to the Roman "authorities".

Praeter · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2020, 11:39:54 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on January 12, 2020, 06:20:30 PM

This Conciliar institution lacks the four marks of the Church and cannot therefore be identified as the Catholic Church.

Ladislaus, where is the Church with four marks?

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Author Topic: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church? (Read 11459 times)

Ladislaus

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