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Author Topic: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?  (Read 11490 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2020, 07:55:06 PM »
The great prophets of the OT indicted the priests and rulers of Israel for apostasy and idolatry; there were periods when they offered sacrifices to false gods and even sacrificed their children to Moloch. I'm hoping you're beginning to see a resemblance to Francis here. The great prophets rightly decried those actions with burning, vigorous denunciations. And yet . . .

In his book The Catholic Controversy, saint and doctor of the Church, St. Francis DeSales, made this true observation: "the authority of the extraordinary mission never destroys the ordinary and is never given to overthrow it. Witness all the Prophets, who never set up altar against altar, never overthrew the priesthood of Aaron, never abolished the constitutions of the ѕуηαgσgυє. Witness Our Lord, who declares that every kingdom divided against itself shall be brought to desolation, and a house upon a house shall fall (Luke xi.17). Witness the respect which he paid to the chair of Moses, the doctrine of which he would have to be observed."

And I add, He said the Pharisees sat in Moses's seat, and yet they were of the party of hell, a brood of vipers, making the word of God void by their tradition (Mark 7). 

Mark : In observing their traditions, He said they made the word of God void. Void. And yet he commanded they be obeyed. 

Food for thought.  

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2020, 07:58:58 PM »
In attempting to equate the Conciliar Church with the Catholic Church, contradictions are inevitable, since those two do contradict one another.
Not according to Biblical precedent, i.e. Israel. Apostasy, idolatry, you name it . . . and yet salvation was of the Jews. 


Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2020, 08:13:02 PM »

Quote
The NO church is all over the map. Their adherents only agree on one thing, that it’s not necessary to be inside the Church to be saved.
Uhhh.... no?

I mean leaving aside the fact that there are plenty of non Feeneyites (you know what I mean) who still do believe in extra ecclesiam (and I acknowledge some people don't), honestly most people who do take the hardline Feeneyite position are also in the Novus Ordo I think...

Note that that's not an argument for or against it one way or another. Just pointing out how it is.

Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2020, 08:14:10 PM »
I'll admit, and I admit that I'm not the expert here, but the "paleo SSPX' position as expressed in the OP has always confused me.  That said what if one viewed it as more like a Venn Diagram?  ie. overlap between the True and the Conciliar Churches with some "non overlap" on each side.

Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2020, 08:14:49 PM »
No, this is according to the distinction of sedeprivationism.  They are materially in the Conciliar Church but still formally Catholic.
This is entirely confused. 
 Above, you distinguished between the Conciliar Church, and the bishops who you said were still "formally Catholic."  But what we are talking about is the Church itself (which you called the Conciliar Church).  In the absurd sedeprivationlist theory, the matter and form pertain to how the bishops possess of the see (formally or only materially); it does not pertain to the individual person who possesses it.  So your statement that the person is "formally Catholic" doesn't make sense.
The question is, do these "formally Catholic" bishops possess sees belonging to the Catholic Church or the imaginary Conciliar Church?   If the sees belong to the Conciliar Church, the bishops who are in material possession of them cannot have jurisdiction.