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Author Topic: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?  (Read 8378 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2020, 03:12:39 PM »
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  • I’m curious, what kind of “union” are you inferring that we are to have with your putative pope and ”Novus Ordo” bishop? Why don’t we profess the same faith if we are members of the same church?

    THIS^.  He's saying we must be in "union" (whatever that means) with our NO bishops but must remain faithful to Traditional doctrine.  THAT is at the heart of the problem.  We do not have the same doctrine (and worship) as our friendly neighborhood NO bishop.  So he's talking about a mere lip-service union, a pretended submission, an almost dare-I-say-it ecuмenical union where you can somehow be united without actually believing the same things and sharing in common worship.  To be in TRUE formal union, there must be unity of belief and of worship.  So union with Traditional and (true, real) union with the NO bishop are inimical and even outright contradictory ... depending on the bishop.

    Offline Immaculatam Hostiam

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #31 on: January 13, 2020, 03:25:23 PM »
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  •  
    Quote
    The Sun of the Church's brilliance is hidden behind the moon of corrupt men, who have temporarily blocked its light from shining.


    Poor allegory because St. Louis DeMontfort likened Christ as the sun Whose brightness is tempored by Blessed Mary as the moon for sinners who need her guidance, just as a people need the moon's light to trek through darkness because they can't trek by day as they can't endure the powerful rays of the sun, much like the sinner's hideous soul and guilt can't stand the Light of Christ. So Blessed Mary's gentle light, which is the Light of Christ shining through her, leads sinners to grace and salvation, if they heed her motherly guidance.






    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #32 on: January 13, 2020, 03:36:45 PM »
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  • 1) There is one pope and hierarchy over two Churches - the Catholic Church and the Conciliar Church.  Therefore, to remain a Catholic, it is necessary to remain in union with the Pope and hierarchy of the Catholic Church, even though the same men are also the Pope and hierarchy of the Conciliar Church.
    .
    So, hypothetically, is it possible to be at the same time the pope of the Catholic Church and the imam of a local mosque? One and the same person?

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #33 on: January 13, 2020, 04:19:09 PM »
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  • One Pope over 2,isn't that laughable?!  Define pope, first.  Then, say, "he will hate one and love the other."  He can not be master of both (Church that Christ founded and Man-made conciliar.

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #34 on: January 13, 2020, 04:49:26 PM »
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  • .
    So, hypothetically, is it possible to be at the same time the pope of the Catholic Church and the imam of a local mosque? One and the same person?
    Certainly not.  For the same reason it's not possible for a Pope to be the head of the Catholic Church and also the head of another Church called the Conciliar Church. That's why I reject the idea that there's a distinct entity known as the Conciliar Church. I wasn't defending it.  I was pointing out the fundamental problems with the two Church theory.  Since using the term Conciliar Church conveys to the mind the idea of a distinct entity, or Church, I believe the use of that phrase is itself problematic, regardless of how someone understands it. 


    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #35 on: January 13, 2020, 04:56:15 PM »
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  •  

    Poor allegory because St. Louis DeMontfort likened Christ as the sun Whose brightness is tempored by Blessed Mary as the moon for sinners who need her guidance, just as a people need the moon's light to trek through darkness because they can't trek by day as they can't endure the powerful rays of the sun, much like the sinner's hideous soul and guilt can't stand the Light of Christ. So Blessed Mary's gentle light, which is the Light of Christ shining through her, leads sinners to grace and salvation, if they heed her motherly guidance.
    The sun and moon are used allegorically in many different ways by the saints and mystics.  

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #36 on: January 13, 2020, 05:21:48 PM »
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  • THIS^.  He's saying we must be in "union" (whatever that means) with our NO bishops but must remain faithful to Traditional doctrine.  THAT is at the heart of the problem.  We do not have the same doctrine (and worship) as our friendly neighborhood NO bishop.  
    One of the unintended consequences of being a schismatic is a false comprehension ecclesiastical of reality.  I know because I used to have the same erroneous mindset.  You imagine that everyone in the "Conciliar Church" is a modernist heretic, and think refusal to be in union with the Church is a mark of orthodoxy.  Nothing could be further from the truth.   

    What showed me that the mindset is false is experiential knowledge. Without that, I would probably be as blind as you are to the reality.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #37 on: January 13, 2020, 05:27:04 PM »
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  • One of the unintended consequences of being a schismatic is a false comprehension ecclesiastical of reality.  I know because I used to have the same erroneous mindset.  You imagine that everyone in the "Conciliar Church" is a modernist heretic, and think refusal to be in union with the Church is a mark of orthodoxy.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  

    What showed me that the mindset is false is experiential knowledge. Without that, I would probably be as blind as you are to the reality.

    False straw man.  I have repeatedly stated the contrary, that there are undoubtedly many good Catholics in material error only in the Novus Ordo.  I even believe that there are some hierarchs who too are in material error only and therefore legitimately exercise jurisdiction.  Just check my posting history.  You made this allegation up out of thin air.  Not everyone is a radical dogmatic sedevacantist like you appear to have been.  Evidently you swung from one extreme back to the other extreme, unable to find the appropriate distinctions to prevent your pendulum swing.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #38 on: January 13, 2020, 05:37:13 PM »
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  • One of the unintended consequences of being a schismatic is a false comprehension ecclesiastical of reality.  I know because I used to have the same erroneous mindset.  You imagine that everyone in the "Conciliar Church" is a modernist heretic, and think refusal to be in union with the Church is a mark of orthodoxy.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  

    What showed me that the mindset is false is experiential knowledge. Without that, I would probably be as blind as you are to the reality.
    Really??? Did you read my post? 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #39 on: January 13, 2020, 05:38:21 PM »
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  • False straw man.  I have repeatedly stated the contrary, that there are undoubtedly many good Catholics in material error only in the Novus Ordo.  I even believe that there are some hierarchs who too are in material error only and therefore legitimately exercise jurisdiction.  Just check my posting history.  You made this allegation up out of thin air.  Not everyone is a radical dogmatic sedevacantist like you appear to have been.  Evidently you swung from one extreme back to the other extreme, unable to find the appropriate distinctions to prevent your pendulum swing.
    👍 It appears that he’s not a good reader.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #40 on: January 13, 2020, 05:59:17 PM »
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  • You imagine that everyone in the "Conciliar Church" is a modernist heretic, and think refusal to be in union with the Church is a mark of orthodoxy.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  

    What showed me that the mindset is false is experiential knowledge. Without that, I would probably be as blind as you are to the reality.
    .
    Everyone? No, not everyone. But let me give you some experiential knowledge, as you say. Here's a poll that says that 89% of American "Catholics" think contraception is not a sin. I have a trick question for you -- what percentage of Catholics actually think contraception is a sin? Answer: 100.00%. Anyone who doesn't believe that is not Catholic. The same article says about half of American "Catholics" think abortion is okay.
    .
    So no, I wouldn't say everyone in the Novus Ordo Church is a heretic, but 89% is a pretty large majority.
    .
    By the way, are we including these people among the "Catholics" who "unanimously accept" Bergoglio as pope?


    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #41 on: January 13, 2020, 06:34:12 PM »
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  • False straw man.  I have repeatedly stated the contrary, that there are undoubtedly many good Catholics in material error only in the Novus Ordo.

    If by "in the Novus Ordo" you mean to include Traditional Catholics, you are making the false assumption that they are in material error.

    Look, I'm not denying that there are problems in the Church, but what I now know is that it's entirely false to imaging that the real Catholics are on the outside, and only compromisers are within. That is entirely false.  What I am beginning to see is that there's far more error, heresy and confusion among Trads on the outside.  Take the example of episcopal consecration and ordination to the priesthood. Nearly all on the outside doubt the validity of both, when there is not the slightest objective doubt about either.   Why all the confusion and doubt?  It's definitely not due to any sound doctrinal reasons, since no one could give me any when I asked (unless I missed it).


    Quote
    I even believe that there are some hierarchs who too are in material error only and therefore legitimately exercise jurisdiction.  


    You just contradicted yourself.  How can they have jurisdiction if they belong to a false Church?  They can't.  You just implicitly admitted that you believe the entity you call the Conciliar Church is really the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.  



    Quote
    Just check my posting history.  You made this allegation up out of thin air.  Not everyone is a radical dogmatic sedevacantist like you appear to have been.  Evidently you swung from one extreme back to the other extreme, unable to find the appropriate distinctions to prevent your pendulum swing.

    I've never been a sedevacantist, and the only thing my pendulum had done is gradually stop swinging.  It now rests atop and is firmly held in place by traditional doctrine.


    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #42 on: January 13, 2020, 06:44:59 PM »
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  • I’m curious, what kind of “union” are you inferring that we are to have with your putative pope and ”Novus Ordo” bishop? Why don’t we profess the same faith if we are members of the same church?

    We're not members of the same Church.  I'm a member of the Roman Catholic Church.  You're not.  And we don't profess the same faith.  I profess the Catholic faith, whole and inviolate.  You profess some variation of the sedevacantist religion.     Two different Churches, two different religions, and two different professions.  

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #43 on: January 13, 2020, 06:48:21 PM »
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  • If by "in the Novus Ordo" you mean to include Traditional Catholics, you are making the false assumption that they are in material error.

    Look, I'm not denying that there are problems in the Church, but what I now know is that it's entirely false to imaging that the real Catholics are on the outside, and only compromisers are within. That is entirely false.  What I am beginning to see is that there's far more error, heresy and confusion among Trads on the outside.  Take the example of episcopal consecration and ordination to the priesthood. Nearly all on the outside doubt the validity of both, when there is not the slightest objective doubt about either.   Why all the confusion and doubt?  It's definitely not due to any sound doctrinal reasons, since no one could give me any when I asked (unless I missed it).


     You just contradicted yourself.  How can they have jurisdiction if they belong to a false Church?  They can't.  You just implicitly admitted that you believe the entity you call the Conciliar Church is really the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.  


    I've never been a sedevacantist, and the only thing my pendulum had done is gradually stop swinging.  It now rests atop and is firmly held in place by traditional doctrine.
    “there’s far more error, heresy and confusion among Trads”? Oh really?
     You lost all credibility with me with that statement.....what a dolt! Get lost!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
    « Reply #44 on: January 13, 2020, 06:54:20 PM »
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  • We're not members of the same Church.  I'm a member of the Roman Catholic Church.  You're not.  And we don't profess the same faith.  I profess the Catholic faith, whole and inviolate.  You profess some variation of the sedevacantist religion.     Two different Churches, two different religions, and two different professions.  

    LOL! But,but,but your heretical, communist, degenerate pope is a member in good standing in your eyes. In fact, he is the centerpiece of your church! LOL!

    Get lost you dolt, I’ve wasted way too much time on you.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?