Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 18

Author Topic: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?  (Read 11441 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2020, 11:41:47 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2020, 09:56:17 AM
Has he, though, in the past few years referenced ANY of the more hard-line +Lefebvre quotes?  I would think he'd be very reluctant to do so ... lest it get back to the Roman "authorities".

He avoids those like the plague.  Mentioning them would be self-incriminating.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2020, 11:42:45 AM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 13, 2020, 11:41:47 AM
He avoids those like the plague.  

That's what I figured.
Logged

Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2020, 11:54:34 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2020, 11:42:45 AM
That's what I figured.
Check your PM’s.
Logged

Offline Praeter

Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2020, 12:44:58 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 12, 2020, 07:30:25 PM
From these rough notions we can deduce the approximate definitions of the two churches:

* The Catholic Church is the society of the baptised who want to save their souls in professing the Catholic faith, in practising the same Catholic worship and in following the same pastors, successors of the Apostles.

* The conciliar church is the society of the baptised who follow the directives of the current Popes and bishops, in espousing more or less consciously the intention to bring about the unity of the human race, and in practise accepting the decisions of the Council, following the new liturgy and submitting to the new Code of Canon law.
If this be so, we have two churches who have the same heads and most of the same members,

If there is one visible head and one hierarchy over two distinct Churches, and if both Churches have most of the same members, how can a Catholic separate from communion with the Conciliar Church without at the same time separating from communion with the Catholic Church?  

Quote
The material cause: These are the persons united to each other within the society. We will say that in the case of the Catholic Church, as in the conciliar church, these are the baptised.

— The efficient cause is the head of the society: for the Catholic Church, Our Lord Jesus Christ, it’s founder, and the Popes who are his vicars; and for the conciliar church, the Popes of the Council, therefore the same Popes; in such a way that the same hierarchy seems to govern the two Churches.

If the head and hierarchy (efficient cause) are the same, and the members (material cause) are mostly the same and completely intermingled, separating from communion with the Conciliar Church would necessarily result in schism from the Catholic Church.

The error in the equation is the idea that the Conciliar Church is a separate and distinct Church from the Catholic Church.  

The simplest explanation is that the Church was infiltrated by her enemies, who are subverting it from within.  The crisis is the result of a battle of ideas within the walls of the one Church by two opposing forces, with a majority of the laity and clergy are caught somewhere in the middle.  



Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Responses to the Crisis: Conciliar Church = Catholic Church?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2020, 12:49:58 PM »
As I mentioned on the other thread, and perhaps Praeter accidentally responded to the wrong thread there, but a thing cannot be ESSENTIALLY (or FORMALLY) two things at the same time.  An animal cannot both be a horse and a pig at the same time.  It is EITHER one OR the other.  Let's say the horse is the Catholic Church, and the pig is the Conciliar Church.  Catholics saw a horse in the same stall day after day.  But one day they come in and there's a pig there in the same stall.  Are they to conclude that this pig is really a horse?  Or did the horse just one day start looking like a pig?  No, the obvious conclusion is that someone swapped out the horse and replaced it with a pig.

Or, is the thing in the stall that looks like a pig merely a really sick horse?

Now, what's really at issue is whether this Conciliar Church is essentially different from the Catholic Church.  Is what we see here still a horse but is so badly diseased and deformed that it kindof looks like a pig?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 18
« previous next »