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DR, we are getting closer to the truth with every post. But I don't think we are there yet.

You put "popes" in scare quotes. Earlier in this exchange you called them true Popes without qualification. Why the scare quotes now? Are they true Popes or aren't they?

You say the harlot is "an apostate Church" and that the true faith lives in those who have "fled the harlot with their Catholic faith intact." DR, I agree completely with you on that. If you must flee the harlot, you are separating from her authority. If her head is a true Pope, you cannot flee without committing schism. If you can flee with your Catholic faith intact, then her head is not a true Pope. You just argued for my position.

You cite 1 Corinthians 6: "he who is joined to a harlot is made one body."

They beg the antipope to allow them to remain in communion with him and his harlot church. Is that not the very fornication Paul condemns?

You identify Rome as Babylon through 1 Peter 5:13. Yes, exactly. And Apocalypse 18:4 says "Come out of her, my people." Not "recognize and resist." Not "stay inside and hope for a tribunal." Come out. That is what I am saying we must do.

And the Manning quote you provided actually supports my position, not yours. Manning says "the barrier shall, by the Divine will, be taken out of the way." Taken out of the way, DR. Not converted into an instrument of destruction. Not turned against the flock. Removed. And then "the man of sin will be revealed." Manning's framework is the Katechon framework. The true Pope is removed. The imposter takes the apparent seat. Manning does not say the Vicar of Christ becomes the agent of Satan. He says the Vicar's protective role is withdrawn and the enemy takes the field.

You see the harlot. You see Babylon. You see the apostasy. You see the need to flee. You have laid every brick. You just will not place the last one.

The men presiding over the harlot-Babylon structure that you yourself have identified are not "popes," with or without scare quotes. They are the false prophets that Jesus warned us about. And every authority you have cited in this exchange, including Manning, agrees with that conclusion.

If her head is a true Pope, you cannot flee without committing schism

If the conciliar structure is the harlot, then what does that make the SSPX, which remains joined to her through their recognition of her head as "Holy Father"?

So cried Moses and Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Let us see then if they acted thus, if they left the people of God, and betook themselves to other nations. How many and vehement rebukes did Jeremiah utter against the sinners, and wicked ones of his people. Yet he lived amongst them, he entered into the same temple with them, celebrated the same mysteries;[ 1107 ] he lived in that congregation of wicked men, but by his crying out “he went out from them.” This is “to go out from them;” this is not “to touch the unclean thing,” the not consenting to them in will, and the not sparing them in word. What shall I say of Jeremiah, of Isaiah, of Daniel, and Ezekiel, and the rest of the prophets, who did not retire from the wicked people, lest they should desert the good who were mingled with that people, among whom themselves were able to be such as they were? When Moses himself, Brethren, was receiving the law in the mount, the people below made an idol.( Exod. xxxii . )

I say, thirdly, that the authority of the extraordinary mission never destroys the ordinary, and is never given to overthrow it. Witness all the Prophets, who never set up altar against altar, never overthrew the priesthood of Aaron, never abolished the constitutions of the ѕуηαgσgυє. Witness Our Lord, who declares that every kingdom divided against itself shall be brought to desolation, and a house upon a house shall fall (Luke xi. 17). Witness the respect which he paid to the chair of Moses, the doctrine of which he would have to be observed. And indeed if the extraordinary ought to abolish the ordinary, how should we know when, and how, and to whom, to give our obedience. No, no; the ordinary is immortal for such time as the Church is here below in the world. The pastors and teachers whom he has once given to the Church are to have a perpetual succession for the perfection of the saints . . . till we all meet in the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ. That we may not now be children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, in the wickedness of men and in their craftiness (Eph. iv. 1) Such is the strong argument which S. Paul uses to prove that if the ordinary pastors and doctors had not perpetual succession, and were liable to have their authority abrogated by the extraordinary, we should also have but an irregular faith and discipline, interrupted at every step; we should be liable to be seduced by men, who on every occasion would boast of having an extraordinary vocation . . .

Romans 15:4  For what things soever were written, were written for our learning: that through patience and the comfort of the scriptures, we might have hope.

I Corinthians 10:1-10  For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea.  2 And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud, and in the sea: 3 And did all eat the same spiritual food,  4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)  5 But with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the desert.  6 Now these things were done in a figure of us, that we should not covet evil things as they also coveted.  7 Neither become ye idolaters, as some of them, as it is written: The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.  8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed fornication, and there fell in one day three and twenty thousand.  9 Neither let us tempt Christ: as some of them tempted, and perished by the serpents.  10 Neither do you murmur: as some of them murmured, and were destroyed by the destroyer.  11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come

Angelus,

I said repeatedly, using different metaphors, that the old rules do not apply. Despite my saying that, you ask me questions you want answered according to the old rules. And then say I'm not answering any of your questions. It's like I tell you that we can't resolve this by talking French, and you keep asking me questions in French.

There you go, applying an old rule. Don't you listen?


The first martyr, St. Stephen, addressed the high priest and other apostates in the Council, killers of Christ, as "brethren" and "fathers." Acts 7:2. I already used the example of St. Paul recognizing the high priest as "ruler" of the people. And you do not understand what flight means, even under the old rules. Well, actually it's not a rule, but an understanding of a term, "flight" or "flee."

Over two years ago I posted this here:

Topic: St. Augustine - Reflections on Isa. lii. 11 ("Depart ye, go ye out from thence")
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/st-augustine-reflections-on-isa-lii-11-('depart-ye-go-ye-out-from-thence')/msg915472/#msg915472


Here's a sample. First, St. Augustine:



Next, St. Francis de Sales:


If you read the prophets, you will see they accuse the priests and prophets of Israel of the most appalling abominations, idolatry, etc. Sound familiar? Yet they never "fled" in the sense of taking themselves "out of the ѕуηαgσgυє," "setting up another altar," etc. They separated in spirit and heart from the abominations, but never considered themselves of a different body or Assembly.

The rules are different now, as we are in the "consummationem saeculi," the time of the Great Apostasy, Great Tribulation, Antichrists. But Israel "according to the flesh" is still Israel "according to the flesh." The spirit of God has left the Temple, but it's still the Temple until its destroyed.

The Conciliar popes and the Conciliar Church are apostates but they are still popes and priests in Israel. Just like the priests and prophets that Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc. railed against.

I'm doing exactly what God tells us to do, look at Israel to understand what is going on in the Church:


Gosh, I quoted Archbishop Vigano I think twice regarding not trying to understand what is going on by looking to the manuals or canonists, and in other threads (if not here) I quoted this from the Archbishop: "A foolish shortsightedness leads many conservatives to take refuge in the precedents found in manuals written and conceived during times of normalcy, seeking there a solution to a crisis that is unique, Biblical, apocalyptic, and eschatological."

The Archbishop describes what is happening as "unique, Biblical, apocalyptic, and eschatological." Look to the Biblical paradigms, and don't seek to explain what is happening by concepts that applied to the Church before these apocalyptic and eschatological times,

In other words, we are dealing with extraordinary times, and the old rules don't apply. That's not a cop out, but a genuine argument. I think I've laid that out clearly in my posts.

I do not walk away from discussions, or not respond to questions. Sometimes calling something "irrelevant" is not an evasion, but an accurate description.

As I've laid out my position very thoroughly now, I'll give you the last word.

DR