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Author Topic: Resisting An Infallible Pope?  (Read 1028 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Resisting An Infallible Pope?
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 01:57:46 PM »


If you will read these warnings, you will see that God does not sound anything like the final quote in your post. He says the consequences for some in his Church during this period will be severe. He says the deception/confusion will not be avoidable for those who do not love the truth (2 Thessalonians 2). But for those who do love the truth and refuse to consent to the evil doers, there will be salvation.

That is not speaking of the SSPX/Resistance and those who reject the heresies. It speaks of the mass of men who accept the mangling of God's truth and partake of the offering of Cain, the New Mass.

Offline Angelus

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Re: Resisting An Infallible Pope?
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 02:14:37 PM »

Angelus,

You're certainly not lukewarm, but your zeal overshoots the mark.

This is what Jesus taught, and how the Apostles acted accordingly:

I changed the order, putting Matthew 23:1-2 last, because, despite them being "children of hell," whose "doctrine" one must beware of, Our Lord said the Pharisees sat in Moses' seat, and should be listened to by virtue of the seat. Yet obviously not when they command contrary to God, as with certain traditions of theirs which "transgress" or "make void" the commandment of God. Matthew 15, Mark 7.

Peter and Paul were confronted by those on "the chair of Moses." Did they tell those "whited sepulchres,"you lost all authority, and have no power over me? No. Peter said, they ought to obey God rather than them, and Paul said he didn't know he was insulting the high priest.

God took care of the High Priest and the Pharisees on His own, abolishing their office and destroying their Temple while some of that generation still lived.

He'll take care of this group of Pharisees as well.

 In the meantime, they sit in the seat,  and we obey God.

**********************************************************************************************************


I believe the current Pharisees are in that nowhere land that the High Priest and Pharisees inhabited between the Crucifixion, when the Temple veil was torn, and the destruction of Jerusalem. They are leaders in an Assembly being emptied of God and being made void, and ready to vanish away:


The Church age of the spread of the gospel and an indefectible hierarchy is gone, and the eternal age of a new heaven and earth is in the offing.



You are conflating instructions relevant for the period BEFORE the age of the Church with the period AT THE END of the age of the Church. When Jesus spoke of the Chair of Moses, he had not yet founded His Church. 

After its foundation, His Church's doctrine is infallible, as are the true Successors of Peter when teaching ex Cathedra. The High Priest and Pharisees were not graced with the charism of infallibility. They simply had authority. Their teachings were obviously perverse.

So, do you understand the conflation you are making?

And Peter and Paul, acting AFTER the Church was founded, did not submit in anyway to the authority of the High Priests or pharisees. They were imprisoned and persecuted and executed because they refused to submit to those false authorities.


Offline Angelus

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Re: Resisting An Infallible Pope?
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 02:19:54 PM »
That is not speaking of the SSPX/Resistance and those who reject the heresies. It speaks of the mass of men who accept the mangling of God's truth and partake of the offering of Cain, the New Mass.

I agree with you for the most part. But because of the confusion the SSPX position feeds, there will be people who have attended the SSPX in the past but decide that there is no harm done falling back to the indult or the ED institutes. This is especially a problem for young people looking for a spouse. They want a bigger pool to choose from and end up back in the belly of the Beast because the SSPX position in self-contradictory in certain respects. 

Re: Resisting An Infallible Pope?
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 03:06:50 PM »
This reminds me of the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox.

The Eastern Orthodox accept the Council of Chalcedon, which taught that "Christ exists in two distinct natures—one fully divine, one fully human—coexisting in one single person (hypostasis)".

The Oriental Orthodox reject this, they say that Chalcedon was not an ecuмenical council but a heretical pseudo-council, they believe that "Christ's divinity and humanity were completely united into one unique, composite divine-human nature".

Now I believe in the first one because a Council said it, but if I didn't know it and you told me "Here you have a Bible and every Church Father from 33 to 451 A.D, figure out which is true" I don't know that I could if you gave me a 100 years.

I feel like it's the same with the sede question, because it boils down to "Does a heretic pope ipso facto lose his office?" with certain nuances on that loss. Is one is expected to learn ecclesiastical latin and read many brilliant canonists and theologians who disagree on it and somehow decide who was right, I don't know how exactly?
Maybe I'm wrong but I get the distinct feeling that it's not that people start by reading Bellarmine or Cajetan, but rather they might do confirmation bias on two common sense intuitions that both make sense:

1. Billions of Catholics hold that Leo is the Pope, by all appearances it seems that he is, I take it at face value. It seems very unlikely that he isn't and the Church has been destitute all this time.

2. In any normal world, if my bishop or priest said they had become a Baptist or a Muslim, they would obviously inmediately stop being my priest or bishop, even if it took a few weeks for Rome to decree it. I don't see why the Pope would be any different.

Offline Angelus

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Re: Resisting An Infallible Pope?
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 03:42:26 PM »
Maybe I'm wrong but I get the distinct feeling that it's not that people start by reading Bellarmine or Cajetan, but rather they might do confirmation bias on two common sense intuitions that both make sense:

1. Billions of Catholics hold that Leo is the Pope, by all appearances it seems that he is, I take it at face value. It seems very unlikely that he isn't and the Church has been destitute all this time.

2. In any normal world, if my bishop or priest said they had become a Baptist or a Muslim, they would obviously inmediately stop being my priest or bishop, even if it took a few weeks for Rome to decree it. I don't see why the Pope would be any different.

Again, look for the "signs of the times" as Jesus said. Read the Scriptures. 

If you do that, you will see that the evidence you provide actually contradicts what the Scriptures tell you to look for:

1. You say that billions of people recognizing Leo as the Pope is evidence of its truth, as if truth is determined by the majority.

But read Luke 18:8 "I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?" Compare to Matthew 24:37-39 "And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark, And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be." Only Noah and his small family were saved. The majority, who laughed him to scorned perished.

The point is that the much, much smaller part of the whole will be saved. And those who are saved will not be those gladly participating in synodality and such nonsense. That is a "new gospel" and is anathema. 


2. You say an open apostate or heretic would stop being your priest or bishop. 

So does the False Prophet need to buy a billboard and announce that he has lost the Catholic Faith? That isn't going to happen. There is an active deception going on. The guy is not going to openly admit that he is a Baptist or a Muslim. He is going to claim that the new Catholic Faith allows things that contradict the traditional Apostolic teaching, such as saying all religions lead to God or that sodomite couples should be blessed.

You have to pay attention and compare the Apostolic Faith to the new Counterfeit Faith.