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Author Topic: Report from the Novus Ordo in California  (Read 3864 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Report from the Novus Ordo in California
« on: December 22, 2014, 10:42:23 AM »
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  • Don't ask me how I get on all these lists, but someone wrote to me via e-mail with the following first-hand experience he had.

    Just another day in the Novus Ordo, 2014.


    Quote from: Dave
    At noon I have to be at the local Catholic school—let’s call it St. Dismas—to train altar servers. I will arrive a few minutes early, and by 12:05 most of the kids will have trickled in. We are in the Southern California, so most of the boys at St. Dismas wear short pants year-round. Students are required to attend one Mass per month with the school, but it has never occurred to anyone, not their parents, not the pastor, not the teachers, and certainly not the students, that they should wear pants to Mass. The girls wear skirts that in 1966 would have been described as “micro-minis.” When I told the boys’ parents that I expected them to wear their uniform pants to Mass when they become servers, the school principal—a genial thirty-something man who insists on the rigorous use of the title “Dr.” but often wears sweatpants and flip-flops to work—cornered me outside his office for a talk. He warned me that I might get some pushback from parents on the pants requirement. “We are only a medium-Catholic school,” he informed me. “We’re not really that Catholic.”
     
    When we walk as a group into the nave (the church itself is almost barren of Catholic art or iconography), none of the kids bow or genuflect before the tabernacle. They are unaware that this is something they should do. They don’t know, because none of these children attend Mass on Sunday. When they do become altar servers, they will be dropped off moments before Mass begins and picked up by an idling SUV before the organ has finished the recessional. From time to time, the parents of altar servers can be seen standing outside the church, hunched over a smart phone, killing time while they wait for Mass to finish.
     
    At this point in the school year, the first-time altar servers have developed a rudimentary understanding of what is expected of them during Mass, but when they began their training in September they needed quite a lot of attention. As I said, they attend Mass once a month with their class, but never on Sunday. Therefore, none of them are aware of the Gloria, the Credo, or the Second Reading. On the first day of training, several kids made the Sign of the Cross in the eastern fashion, and I had to take several minutes to correct them. I brought this up with a member of the school administration, and she was somewhat surprised. The kids say a morning prayer each day, she said, and they begin with the Sign of the Cross. It’s possible that no one ever corrected them. I have never seen any of the teachers at Holy Mass, so it seems likely that this sort of attention to detail isn’t a priority for them either.
     
    The children know nothing of vestments, sacramentals, the prayers of the Church other than the Hail Mary and the Our Father, feast days, or the concept of Sanctifying Grace. None has been to confession since the first one, but all receive communion without any thought. If their parents are forced into Mass, they too will line up for Communion and receive it happily and without qualm. The teachers aren’t practicing Catholics, the parents aren’t practicing Catholics, and the parish priest would never dare suggest to the congregation that they go to confession. He correctly understands that there would be outrage among his flock.
     
    The pastor at St. Dismas is a gαy man. It is quite possible that this priest—let’s call him Fr. Dave—lives a life of celibacy. I have no reason to doubt that he does. He presents himself, however, as a traditional, American “queen.” He is a kind and gentle priest, and I think the kids genuinely like him. He does everything he can to take part in the life of the school, and he always has a warm word for parishioners, students, and parents. Fr. Dave has been my primary confessor for about six years. His style in the confessional is orthodox. He makes no attempt to psychoanalyze me, and he levies a serious penance when I deserve it. He is also quite reverent as a presider at Holy Mass. He does not improvise, and he makes it plain that he considers Mass to be a grave and solemn occasion.
     
    Fr. Dave knows better than to suggest to his flock how to live as Catholics. He does not speak of sin. Ever. He does not discuss the saints, devotions, the rosary or prayer of any kind, marriage, death, the sacraments, Catholic family life, the Devil, the poor, the sick, the elderly, the young, mercy, forgiveness, or any other aspect of the Catholic faith that might be useful to a layperson. His homilies are the worst sort of lukewarm application of the day’s Gospel reading—shopworn sermons that sound very much like they were copied word for word from a book of Gospel reflections published in 1975. No one in the pews ever discusses his homilies as far as I can tell.
     
    The pews are not full. The most crowded Mass is at ten-thirty on Sunday morning, when the church is usually about two-thirds full. Holy days of obligation draw almost no one. I attended the Easter Vigil last year and the Church was half empty. The crowd at a typical Sunday Mass is mixed. There are quite a few elderly parishioners who sit together and ignore the rubrics of the Mass. They refuse to kneel after Communion, they hold hands during the Our Father, they chat loudly before and after Mass, and they roam the Church greeting their friends, seemingly unaware that others might want to pray in silence. The most prayerful and reverent congregants are the handful of Filipino families. The other Mass-goers are a smattering of middle class families, stray Catholic singles, and a few Latin American die-hards. After Mass, the older people hang around and shake hands with the pastor. Everyone else drives away. I know only a small handful of my fellow parishioners, and I hesitate to bring any of this up with them. It doesn’t seem worth it.
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    Offline andysloan

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    Report from the Novus Ordo in California
    « Reply #1 on: December 22, 2014, 10:47:55 AM »
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  • And there are also many pharisees in Tradition, so the overall picture of the Church is very bleak!


    Offline Matthew

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    Report from the Novus Ordo in California
    « Reply #2 on: December 22, 2014, 11:14:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    And there are also many pharisees in Tradition, so the overall picture of the Church is very bleak!


    Nevertheless, I'll take my chances with Tradition.

    You can ignore the pharisees and not become one yourself. You can avail yourself of the true doctrine of the Church, Sacraments with no doubt, priests who are certainly ordained, and priests who are trained in true Catholic moral theology to help you get to heaven via their sermons and confessional advice. Plus the devotional practices in Tradition (in no particular order: First Fridays, First Saturdays, devotion to St. Joseph, Stations of the Cross, Sacred Heart of Jesus, Infant Jesus of Prague, Gregorian chant, Rosary, etc.) are the best means to get to heaven. Mission accomplished! You can save your soul.

    If you stay in the Novus Ordo, your faith will be irreparably damaged and you may lose your soul. Game over.

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    Offline andysloan

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    Report from the Novus Ordo in California
    « Reply #3 on: December 22, 2014, 12:02:52 PM »
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  • It is indisputable that Tradition is the place to be. What is objectionable is that your post is redolent of the prideful superiority/dangerous complacency that exists within tradition. And you don't have to look very far Matthew to observe this!

    Salvation does not rest on being in Tradition or the Novus Ordo, it rests on this:
       
    Matthew 19:17


    "But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

    And in both the conciliar church and tradition, there are persons who are compliant and others not.

    If one wishes to reasonably point out the disorders in the Novus Ordo Church, one also ought to recognise the errors in tradition, the most ghastly being sedevacantism, which is a deadly error. For a "Catholic" to entertain sedevacantism is astounding!
       

    John 16:13


    "But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth."


    Apparently truth is variable in Tradition also these days!

    As St Jerome said:

    "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Report from the Novus Ordo in California
    « Reply #4 on: December 22, 2014, 12:44:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    It is indisputable that Tradition is the place to be. What is objectionable is that your post is redolent of the prideful superiority/dangerous complacency that exists within tradition. And you don't have to look very far Matthew to observe this!

    Salvation does not rest on being in Tradition or the Novus Ordo, it rests on this:



    It is only objectionable to those who still cling to the NO abomination as though there is some type of hope within it or for it.

    That OP letter demonstrates how well the NO has accomplished it's purpose - and it's nowhere near done yet as long as compromisers like yourself continue to support and defend it.

    So don't go quoting Holy Scripture to defend the pigsty table and the faith it stands for, do start quoting your conciliarist saints and fathers to support the NO faith - that's all you have, the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #5 on: December 22, 2014, 12:57:48 PM »
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  • “We’re not really that Catholic.”, the school principal said.

    This is probably the worst predominant line of thinking among "Catholics". Either one is a Catholic, or one is not; but most Catholics live like they can somehow be a Catholic "in name only" or a cultural "Catholic" while living entirely secular lives. The proclaimed non-Catholics know this and prey on it. No wonder why we are no longer taking seriously by anyone.

    Lukewarmeness is really an odious sin.

    "But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth". (Rev 3:16)
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline andysloan

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    « Reply #6 on: December 22, 2014, 01:00:47 PM »
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  • Stubborn said:


    "It is only objectionable to those who still cling to the NO abomination as though there is some type of hope within it or for it.

    That OP letter demonstrates how well the NO has accomplished it's purpose - and it's nowhere near done yet as long as compromisers like yourself continue to support and defend it.

    So don't go quoting Holy Scripture to defend the pigsty table and the faith it stands for, do start quoting your conciliarist saints and fathers to support the NO faith - that's all you have, the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be. "



    This being an example of the pharasaism referred to earlier and its commensurate blindness. Stubborn claiming himself a Catholic, yet rejecting canonisations.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #7 on: December 22, 2014, 01:29:44 PM »
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  • No, it has nothing to do with pharasaism, it has everything to do with the NO being a curse and an abomination. Wake up.

    You find the OP objectionable because you love the abomination called the Novus Ordo. That's what it's about.

    For whatever reason, you don't believe the principle of the school when he says: “We’re not really that Catholic.” Truth is, they really aren't. Believe it.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #8 on: December 22, 2014, 03:13:55 PM »
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  • The real shocker to me is, every poster on this thread still believes we have a true pope.

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #9 on: December 22, 2014, 03:22:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    The real shocker to me is, every poster on this thread still believes we have a true pope.



    You just can't stop, can you?

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Approaches-to-the-Crisis-a-Logical-Analysis-Part-I-the-New-Mass

    Offline songbird

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    « Reply #10 on: December 22, 2014, 04:13:56 PM »
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  • You are so right, Myrna. In fact it is just an institute that takes the money to give to  federal gov't and calls themselves catholic. A dog an pony show to brain wash us all!


    Offline andysloan

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    « Reply #11 on: December 22, 2014, 06:07:23 PM »
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  • Stubborn said:

    "No, it has nothing to do with pharasaism"

    It has everything to do with pharasaism. At root, your blindness is through lack of love of neighbour.

    How do we come to love of neighbour? Through destruction of love of self. How do we destroy love of self? Through the cross:   

    Matthew 16:24


    "Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."



    We see on CI very little talk of the cross or love or true charity to neighbour - which is absolutely the centrality of Catholicism.

    Instead, many proud talking heads, who think that knowledge and/or being cleverer than others is the way to heaven; persons not afraid with premeditation to insult and abuse others.

    Hence, did St Vincent Ferrer say in explaining why the Christians would be given to be conquered by antichrist.
       

    Wisdom 11:17


    "That they might know that by what things a man sinneth, by the same also he is tormented."



    And how many have been given the understanding that the coming of antichrist is at the doors? Few; with no doubt some correlation with the outrageous abuse of conciliar popes and a failure to recognise canonisations. What a shock you are in for! And you will have no-one to blame but yourselves when the time comes.

    Wisdom 5:7


    "What hath pride profited us?"








    Offline andysloan

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    « Reply #12 on: December 22, 2014, 06:17:23 PM »
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  • MyrnaM said:

    "The real shocker to me is, every poster on this thread still believes we have a true pope."

    Romans 13:1-2

    "Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation."


    And through every sin of failure to consent, you make it ever harder to extricate yourself from your rebellion or your eternal damnation even worse.







    Offline Meg

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    « Reply #13 on: December 22, 2014, 06:20:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew

    Fr. Dave knows better than to suggest to his flock how to live as Catholics. He does not speak of sin. Ever. He does not discuss the saints, devotions, the rosary or prayer of any kind, marriage, death, the sacraments, Catholic family life, the Devil, the poor, the sick, the elderly, the young, mercy, forgiveness, or any other aspect of the Catholic faith that might be useful to a layperson. His homilies are the worst sort of lukewarm application of the day’s Gospel reading—shopworn sermons that sound very much like they were copied word for word from a book of Gospel reflections published in 1975. No one in the pews ever discusses his homilies as far as I can tell.
     
    The pews are not full. The most crowded Mass is at ten-thirty on Sunday morning, when the church is usually about two-thirds full. Holy days of obligation draw almost no one. I attended the Easter Vigil last year and the Church was half empty. The crowd at a typical Sunday Mass is mixed. There are quite a few elderly parishioners who sit together and ignore the rubrics of the Mass. They refuse to kneel after Communion, they hold hands during the Our Father, they chat loudly before and after Mass, and they roam the Church greeting their friends, seemingly unaware that others might want to pray in silence. The most prayerful and reverent congregants are the handful of Filipino families. The other Mass-goers are a smattering of middle class families, stray Catholic singles, and a few Latin American die-hards. After Mass, the older people hang around and shake hands with the pastor. Everyone else drives away. I know only a small handful of my fellow parishioners, and I hesitate to bring any of this up with them. It doesn’t seem worth it.
    [/quote]

    I have a few thoughts about the above communication. The fellow who wrote it is describing the typical NO parish. He says that Fr. Dave knows better than to suggest to his flock about how to live as Catholics. I assume that he means that the flock doesn't want to hear about how to live as Catholics. The priests always get the blame, it seems, for lack of solid Catholic teaching from the pulpit or bulletin. While this is mostly true, I think that it also has something to do with the "flock" not wanting to hear anything other than dull and boring peace and luv homilies. They don't want to hear about sin. Or confession. Or Purgatory. Or anything really Catholic that might make them uncomfortable. The Faith is all about love and being comfy.

    I mostly attend the dreadful NO, and I don't attend any one parish on a regular basis. I attend several, and keep tabs on what they're doing. I attended a new one last Sunday. The priest omitted the Apostles Creed, so I emailed him to let him know that he's not supposed to do that (in a charitable manner). He didn't write back. But I'll go again in a few weeks to see if the situation has improved. I tend to send emails to priests or layperson coordinators to tell them what I think. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. I'm kind of like a self-appointed NO police.

    The fellow who writes this should definitely consider talking to other parishioners about the situation he sees. Or at least he should talk to the priest. He could ask to have devotions such as the exposition of the blessed sacrament. There are things he can do, or at least he should try.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #14 on: December 23, 2014, 04:37:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    Stubborn said:

    "No, it has nothing to do with pharasaism"

    It has everything to do with pharasaism. At root, your blindness is through lack of love of neighbour.

    How do we come to love of neighbour? Through destruction of love of self. How do we destroy love of self? Through the cross:   

    Matthew 16:24


    "Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."



    We see on CI very little talk of the cross or love or true charity to neighbour - which is absolutely the centrality of Catholicism.

    Instead, many proud talking heads, who think that knowledge and/or being cleverer than others is the way to heaven; persons not afraid with premeditation to insult and abuse others.

    Hence, did St Vincent Ferrer say in explaining why the Christians would be given to be conquered by antichrist.
       

    Wisdom 11:17


    "That they might know that by what things a man sinneth, by the same also he is tormented."



    And how many have been given the understanding that the coming of antichrist is at the doors? Few; with no doubt some correlation with the outrageous abuse of conciliar popes and a failure to recognise canonisations. What a shock you are in for! And you will have no-one to blame but yourselves when the time comes.

    Wisdom 5:7


    "What hath pride profited us?"



    I already told you to quote your own saints and Fathers - you have a whole 50+ years worth of fathers and saints to quote to support your error. St Vincent Ferrer died over 500 years before your religion was invented, so don't attempt to justify your faith with the teachings of a Catholic saint, all that will accomplish will be adding to your confusion.

    You choose to ignore the truth of the matter so you just keep going to your pigsty table and fill yourself on all it represents, but don't fool yourself by using Catholic saints to support your religion - use your own V2 saints, not the saints they kicked out everywhere save the naming of their buildings.

    The OP said the church was named St. Dismas - do you suppose even one member of that community even knows who St. Dismas is when they don't even know to genuflect ("whats that?") before the tabernacle - if they could find it?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse