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Author Topic: Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII  (Read 1233 times)

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Offline Telesphorus

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Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII
« on: August 19, 2013, 02:39:16 PM »
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  • Quote
    Such authors as Mgr. Shea and Father Connell faithfully reflect the teaching of the Popes who have condemned in the most forceful terms the belief that the state has no right to repress public heresy and that truth and error should be accorded equal right. Pope Pius VII termed it "disastrous and ever-to-be deplored heresy" (letter to Mgr. de Boulogne); Pope Gregory XVI condemned it as "the insanity" (Mirari Vos); Pope Pius IX termed it “a monstrous error” (Qui Pluribus), “most pernicious to the Catholic Church, and to the salvation of souls” (Quanta Cura), “the liberty of perdition” (Quanta Cura), something which will “corrupt the morals and minds of the people” (Syllabus of Error), something which propagates “the best of indifferentism” (Syllabus); Pope Leo XIII termed it “a public crime” (Immortale Dei), “atheism, however it may differ from its name” (Immortale Dei), “contrary to reason” (Libertas).


    http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_one/Appendix_IV.htm

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    So by way of conclusion, either we are the heirs of the Catholic Church, i.e., of Quanta Cura, of Pascendi, with all the Popes down to the Council and with the great majority of bishops prior to the Council, for the reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ and for the salvation of souls; or else we are the heirs of those who strive, even at the price at breaking with the Catholic Church and her doctrine, to acknowledge the principles of the Rights of Man, based on a veritable apostasy, in order to obtain a place as servants in the Revolutionary World Government. That is it. They will manage to get quite a good place as servants in the Revolutionary World Government because, by saying they are in favor of the Rights of Man, religious liberty, democracy and human equality, clearly they are worth being given a position as servants in the World Government.


    http://archives.sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/two_years_after_the_consecrations.htm


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII
    « Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 03:07:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bishop Fellay
    00:22 SSPX versus Rome?

    The question is not the Society versus Rome. I think, if you see the whole thing like that, it’s wrong understanding, I definitely don‘t look at it this way. Since Paul VI, so it‘s not new, we may see on the council we have this apprehension, that there is something wrong in the Church. A movement, a strong movement which is going astray, which is no longer, let say, giving the Catholic line, but from people who are in position and so who give the impression it’s the Catholic church. Many people have an understanding of the council which is a wrong understanding. And now we have authorities in Rome who say it. We, I may say in the discussions, I think, we see that many things which we would  have condemned as being from the council are in fact not from the council, but the common understanding of it.


    01:25 Religious liberty

    Religious liberty is used in so many ways, and looking closer I really have the impression that not many know what really the council says about it. The council is presenting a religious liberty which in fact was a very, very limited one, very limited. It would, in our talks with Rome they clearly said that, to mean that there would be a right to error or a right to choose each one its religious -  religion - is false.


    One can only have the impression that Bishop Fellay is implicitly denying that Archbishop Lefebvre properly understood what the Council says about religious liberty.


    Offline Jehanne

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    Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII
    « Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 04:42:16 PM »
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  • Here's the offending paragraph:

    Quote
    This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

    The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

    It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth. However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom. Therefore the right to religious freedom has its foundation not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature. In consequence, the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed. (Dignitatis humanae, 2)


    What does "within due limits" mean?  The authoritative judgment (from the CCC):

    Quote
    2109 The right to religious liberty can of itself be neither unlimited nor limited only by a "public order" conceived in a positivist or naturalist manner. The "due limits" which are inherent in it must be determined for each social situation by political prudence, according to the requirements of the common good, and ratified by the civil authority in accordance with "legal principles which are in conformity with the objective moral order."


    A "just public order" means the "common good," but what is the "common good":

    Quote
    2032 The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth." "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."

    2246 It is a part of the Church's mission "to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it. The means, the only means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circuмstances."


    Clearly, the modern Church cannot condemn the various Catholic Inquisitions, because as we all know, some Inquisitors were also canonized Saints of the Church:

    Quote
    828 By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors. "The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church's history." Indeed, "holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal."


    As for "false ecuмenism," the present Catholic Church teaches that it is the "will of God" that everyone become fully Catholic:

    Quote
    816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

    The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecuмenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."


    It was the Roman Catechism which used the phrase "the People of God":

    Quote
    Finally, the Church is called the body of Christ, as may be seen in the Epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians.  Each of these appellations has very great influence in exciting the faithful to prove themselves worthy of the boundless clemency and goodness of God, who chose them to be the people of God.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII
    « Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 05:12:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: DH
    Nor, on the other hand, is he to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience, especially in matters religious. The reason is that the exercise of religion, of its very nature, consists before all else in those internal, voluntary and free acts whereby man sets the course of his life directly toward God.  No merely human power can either command or prohibit acts of this kind.(3) The social nature of man, however, itself requires that he should give external expression to his internal acts of religion: that he should share with others in matters religious; that he should profess his religion in community. Injury therefore is done to the human person and to the very order established by God for human life, if the free exercise of religion is denied in society, provided just public order is observed.


    This is completely contrary to what the Church has taught and practiced over the centuries.


    Offline Jehanne

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    Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII
    « Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 07:35:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: DH
    Nor, on the other hand, is he to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience, especially in matters religious. The reason is that the exercise of religion, of its very nature, consists before all else in those internal, voluntary and free acts whereby man sets the course of his life directly toward God.  No merely human power can either command or prohibit acts of this kind.(3) The social nature of man, however, itself requires that he should give external expression to his internal acts of religion: that he should share with others in matters religious; that he should profess his religion in community. Injury therefore is done to the human person and to the very order established by God for human life, if the free exercise of religion is denied in society, provided just public order is observed.


    This is completely contrary to what the Church has taught and practiced over the centuries.



    As long as non-Catholics are not impeding or hindering the One True Church, this teaching seems to be wholly orthodox.  Can you give an example of otherwise?


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII
    « Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 10:27:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: DH
    Nor, on the other hand, is he to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience, especially in matters religious. The reason is that the exercise of religion, of its very nature, consists before all else in those internal, voluntary and free acts whereby man sets the course of his life directly toward God.  No merely human power can either command or prohibit acts of this kind.(3) The social nature of man, however, itself requires that he should give external expression to his internal acts of religion: that he should share with others in matters religious; that he should profess his religion in community. Injury therefore is done to the human person and to the very order established by God for human life, if the free exercise of religion is denied in society, provided just public order is observed.


    This is completely contrary to what the Church has taught and practiced over the centuries.



    As long as non-Catholics are not impeding or hindering the One True Church, this teaching seems to be wholly orthodox.  Can you give an example of otherwise?


    Jehenne,

    The other religions are false and from Hell.  

    Saying that, the above passage in bold seems to be embracing a form of naturalism or even encouraging indifferentism.  And the fact that it's coming from a Council of the Catholic Church means that the Catholic Church is making a major alteration in a very specific belief.

    Our Lord said "No one comes to the Father except thru Me."  So, we have a contradiction here.  

    Much vagueness and ambiguity is included in the council docuмents and now we have Cardinals walking around saying "ecuмenism of return is bad theology and was abrogated by the Second Vatican council."  

    Offline Charlemagne

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    Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII
    « Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 10:49:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Here's the offending paragraph:

    Quote
    This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

    The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.



    Yes, this is very much the "offending paragraph" - so much so that it's pure heresy. From Quanta Cura, Pope Pius IX, December 8, 1864:

    "For you well know, venerable brethren, that at this time men are found not a few who, applying to civil society the impious and absurd principle of 'naturalism,' as they call it, dare to teach that 'the best constitution of public society and (also) civil progress altogether require that human society be conducted and governed without regard being had to religion any more than if it did not exist; or, at least, without any distinction being made between the true religion and false ones.' And, against the doctrine of Scripture, of the Church, and of the Holy Fathers, they do not hesitate to assert that 'that is the best condition of civil society, in which no duty is recognized, as attached to the civil power, of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except so far as public peace may require.' From which totally false idea of social government they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, an 'insanity,' that 'liberty of conscience and worship is each man's personal right, which ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society; and that a right resides in the citizens to an absolute liberty, which should be restrained by no authority whether ecclesiastical or civil, whereby they may be able openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word of mouth, by the press, or in any other way.'"
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Jehanne

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    Religious liberty: called heresy by Pope Pius VII
    « Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 12:16:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Here's the offending paragraph:

    Quote
    This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

    The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.



    Yes, this is very much the "offending paragraph" - so much so that it's pure heresy. From Quanta Cura, Pope Pius IX, December 8, 1864:

    "For you well know, venerable brethren, that at this time men are found not a few who, applying to civil society the impious and absurd principle of 'naturalism,' as they call it, dare to teach that 'the best constitution of public society and (also) civil progress altogether require that human society be conducted and governed without regard being had to religion any more than if it did not exist; or, at least, without any distinction being made between the true religion and false ones.' And, against the doctrine of Scripture, of the Church, and of the Holy Fathers, they do not hesitate to assert that 'that is the best condition of civil society, in which no duty is recognized, as attached to the civil power, of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except so far as public peace may require.' From which totally false idea of social government they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, an 'insanity,' that 'liberty of conscience and worship is each man's personal right, which ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society; and that a right resides in the citizens to an absolute liberty, which should be restrained by no authority whether ecclesiastical or civil, whereby they may be able openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word of mouth, by the press, or in any other way.'"


    I don't think that Pope Pius IX would say that Jєωs ought to be baptized against their wills or even that the children of Jєωs should be baptized against the explicit wishes of their parents, unless, of course, there was some danger of death.  What applies to Jєωs, of course, applies to all non-Catholics.  If Pope Pius IX would agree that Jєωs should not be forced to convert and practice Catholicism, he is at least implicitly agreeing that they should be allowed to practice their now-dead religion, as long as they were not impeding the activities of the One True Religion.  The same would be true of any adherent to a false religion.