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Author Topic: Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?  (Read 3466 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
« on: March 13, 2011, 07:35:19 PM »
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  • In other threads, the Marian apparitions of Fatima and Akita were brought up and discussed.

    One member brought up Medjugorje, as an example of how it's fine to reject alleged Marian apparitions.

    No, I don't believe in Medjugorje, because A) the message seems to conflict with Catholic teaching and B) the life of the seers involved.

    There are no such problems with Fatima or Akita, however.


    Private revelations are not necessary for salvation. However, it is temerious  -- no, pretty much foolish -- to "reject" such a solid apparition such as Fatima.

    But Sedevacantists -- particularly the dogmatic variety -- have irrevocably cast off the entire "conciliar Church" structure, with all personnel. How could the Pope consecrate Russia, for example, if we don't have a Pope?

    Perhaps this is one of the concrete ways in which sedevacantism conflicts with Catholicism? (I know I'm opening a can of worms there)

    I know that some Catholics (on this board and elsewhere) have numerous criticisms of sedevacantism -- including how apparently un-Catholic it is. Perhaps this is one of the more concrete manifestations of that.

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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #1 on: March 13, 2011, 07:39:17 PM »
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  • Actually, the vast majority of SVs are rather devoted to OL of Fatima.  The CMRI has had a Fatima Conference for over 40 years, as just one example.

    IMO, trads of ALL stripes get into trouble when they start excluding from the Church those with whom they disagree about the present crisis.  Would that this phenomenon were limited to just SPs or SVs; it is not.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #2 on: March 13, 2011, 07:44:01 PM »
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  • Quote
    But Sedevacantists -- particularly the dogmatic variety -- have irrevocably cast off the entire "conciliar Church" structure, with all personnel. How could the Pope consecrate Russia, for example, if we don't have a Pope?


    Sedevacantist does not say we will never have a pope!

    God's time is not our time.  The time is not right yet for a consecration of Russia, when the time is right, it will be consecrated according to the Will of God, by a true pope.  

    A better question would be, if the VII popes are true and if they really believe in Fatima, why aren't they consecrating Russia?  Oh!  thats right they don't believe in converting.


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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #3 on: March 13, 2011, 07:50:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    How could the Pope consecrate Russia, for example, if we don't have a Pope?

    Perhaps this is one of the concrete ways in which sedevacantism conflicts with Catholicism?


    Perhaps the failure to consecrate Russia is one of the ways we know the V2 and post-V2 popes are impostors?

    IMO, that is at least as "concrete", if not more so, than the point you have chosen to mention.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline obediens

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #4 on: March 13, 2011, 10:00:35 PM »
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  • Then surely that must apply to Benedict XV - Pius XII as well?

    Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Perhaps the failure to consecrate Russia is one of the ways we know the V2 and post-V2 popes are impostors?

    IMO, that is at least as "concrete", if not more so, than the point you have chosen to mention.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #5 on: March 13, 2011, 10:05:49 PM »
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  • Did BXV know about the demand?  Did Pius XI?  When was it made known to the Pontiff?  It would seem Pius XII knew about it, but did not follow Our Lady's directions.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #6 on: March 13, 2011, 10:09:23 PM »
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  • Rejecting Fatima does not make one a non-Catholic.

    Certainly many sedes take Fatima incredibly seriously, and many non-sede Traditionalists do not take it seriously at all.

    Is there sometimes a tendency towards impiety in sedes? Perhaps because their confidence in institutions has been so shaken?


    Offline Exilenomore

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #7 on: March 14, 2011, 09:53:20 AM »
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  • I personally think Pope Pius XII was the suffering Holy Father, of whom Our Lady spoke. He might have been afraid to consecrate Russia because of what the reaction of his enemies would be if he did. I believe he even uttered his worries over the messages of Fatima, complaining that he saw all around him, enemies who wanted to tear down the sacred chapel, change the theology and liturgy of the Church, so much that he dared to say that there would come a time when 'people would seek the red lamp in vain' (of the tabernacle).

    Methinks he was the 'suffering Pontiff'.

    I do believe the Church will have a valid Pope again, who will make the consecration and restore the traditions and rights of the Church.


    Offline Jehanne

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #8 on: March 14, 2011, 09:57:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Rejecting Fatima does not make one a non-Catholic.

    Certainly many sedes take Fatima incredibly seriously, and many non-sede Traditionalists do not take it seriously at all.

    Is there sometimes a tendency towards impiety in sedes? Perhaps because their confidence in institutions has been so shaken?



    Even Richard Dawkins, in his The God Delusion, admits that he has "no natural explanation" for the events that occurred just northeast of Fatima, Portugal on October 13, 1917.  What is there not to accept about it?  It's kind of like saying that one believes in the existence of the Sun but not the Moon.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 11:14:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Even Richard Dawkins, in his The God Delusion, admits that he has "no natural explanation" for the events that occurred just northeast of Fatima, Portugal on October 13, 1917.  What is there not to accept about it?  It's kind of like saying that one believes in the existence of the Sun but not the Moon.


    I'm not saying I reject Fatima or that a person should reject Fatima, I'm just stating that it isn't non-Catholic to do so.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #10 on: March 14, 2011, 11:41:56 AM »
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  • ( 1 ) I don't reject Fatima, I question the secrets of Tuy which are not approved.  

    In the case of La Salette, we see an example where there is an approved apparition, but where the seer was later considered by the Church itself to have become untrustworthy and whose writings were banned.
    To say it couldn't happen to Lucia, especially when there are so many questions about the secrets, and when the Church is was in crisis, is what strikes me as... Sentimental.  

    I'm not making any claims, I'm not saying the secrets are fake, I'm merely asking pointed questions in the DESIRE to believe in these secrets.  But I cannot just force myself to believe, it has to hit me.

    I can tell you this, I fear for my soul, like I might be lacking some grace by not believing in these secrets.  It doesn't help me when I'm asking questions about things that genuinely trouble me, and instead of answers, I get hysteria.

    ( 2 ) Very few sedevacantists question ( the secrets of ) Fatima.  This is a cheap shot, trying to use my doubts about this against sedes as a whole.  

    If it is devotion to Fatima that you want, CMRI would be a better option for you than SSPX.  Bishop Schuckardt of CMRI was in the Blue Army before founding the CMRI, he founded a group called the Fatima Crusade, and that is presumably why their nuns to this day wear blue habits.  They are extremely devoted to Fatima.  In my confirmation class, they teach it as if it's an article of the faith.  My opinion is no more popular there than it is here, probably less so.  

    However, that is also where I have noticed a connection between a certain Cold War, pro-American mentality and the "consecration of Russia," which isn't very appealing to me, to say the least ( Fatima seems to be used to blind people about the true nature of America and to paint Russia alone as the evil empire ).  However, I can make the distinction now between a possible misapplication of the Fatima secrets and their real content, if there is any.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline TKGS

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #11 on: March 14, 2011, 12:28:23 PM »
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  • Until I joined CathInfo, I was not aware that there were any sedevacantists that rejected Fatima.  I have spoken to quite a number of sedevacantists, read the writings of quite a few sedevacantists, and I have never heard or read of any of them rejecting Fatima as a true apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  (I admit that Fatima is not always a topic of conversation.)  All of the sedevacantists I personally know pray that "Fatima Prayer" (i.e., "O my Jesus...") after the Gloria when praying the Rosary.

    On the other hand, I know a few Conciliar Catholics (both ones who ordinarily attend a traditional indult Mass and ones who exclusively attend the Novus Ordo) who reject Fatima, accept the "Third Secret" released by Cardinal Ratzinger, and the official explanation that Sister Lucia may have just made up the whole thing from forgotten memories of stories she had heard or read.  And one of these believes Medjugorje is clearly a true apparition (largely, I think, because one of the messages said John Paul 2 was "her pope" and many of her messages mirror Conciliar doctrines).

    These are simply my experiences.  I would not presume to paint all Conciliar Catholics with rejecting Fatima because I know Conciliar Catholics who reject Fatima.  I think it unfair to paint all sedevacantists with particular beliefs based upon what a few particular sedevacantists say they believe.

    We need to keep in mind that the term, "sedevacant" was coined only a few years ago.  This is why we find no references to "sedevacantists" a hundred years ago.  We likewise find no references to "dinosaurs" prior to 1841.  It's not that no one believed in dinosaurs before then, it's that the word was invented in that year.

    For better or worse, the word "sedevacantist" means nothing more or less than a person who believes that Benedict 16 is not a valid claimant to the See of Peter.  Some sedevacantists eschew the term, but this is the commonly accepted term.  Sedevacantism is not a movement, a group, a set of doctrines, or anything other than the recognition of the fact that Benedict 16 is not a valid claimant to the papacy.

    Fatima has nothing to do with whether one might or might not be a sedevacanist.

    Offline SJB

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #12 on: March 14, 2011, 01:29:59 PM »
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  • "Fatima" has different meanings to different people. I'm not aware of any sedevacantists who reject Fatima as an approved apparition. It is likely the disagreements come from many of the things claimed to be part of "Fatima."  
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Raoul76

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #13 on: March 15, 2011, 03:08:15 AM »
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  • The approved Fatima apparition has very little content besides "Repent."

    It is the secrets that are controversial.  Your reaction to them probably depends on your worldview.  

    My problem with the "consecration of Russia" idea, it is easy for me to figure out, comes from too much exposure to Catholics who think America is the greatest country ever and spend too much time living in a Cold War movie in their heads, demonizing Russia.  I have seen the Fatima secret used in order to increase blind patriotism.

    Then TKGS talks about Vatican II people who find the Fatima secrets too doom-laden.

    I know of others who aren't sedevacantist because Mary said the Pope would have much to suffer, therefore we must still have a Pope... ( Did Mary say when and who this Pope would be, how they do they know he didn't die a long time ago? )

    It's really a Rohrschach blot, these secrets.  That is another aspect that worried me, that they were causing more confusion.  But it's a chicken or the egg question -- is it the Fatima secrets that caused confusion, or is it people slapping their own prejudices onto the Fatima secrets that caused confusion?  

    Today, I made great progress towards believing, the only aspect that still troubles me is the second secret being released subsequently to the war that it was supposed to prevent, if Mary's words were heeded.  And it wasn't a cover-up, from what I can tell, but that is when Lucia wrote it down.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Rejection of Fatima is how Sedevacantism isnt Catholic?
    « Reply #14 on: March 15, 2011, 01:45:42 PM »
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  • Okay, all my objections have been lifted, unless another one pops up unexpectedly.  I believe in the secrets.

    One less reason for Matthew not to be sede  :wink:
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.