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Quote from: Hobbledehoy

I have not worked up anything or exaggerated things: do you think I am making this up? It is very serious indeed. People are seeing the inconsistencies and they are leaving back to the NO or are defecting from the faith altogether, as they are beginning to be scandalized at the fact that the sedevacantists have made of Holy Mother Church the very thing of which the Prophet Jeremias complained in his Lamentations, which will be soon read at First Nocturn at Matins.

Do you have some statistics on that? Do you actually know a bunch of names of people who have expressed that they gave up the Faith or gone back to the Novus Ordo because they didn't like how some sedevacantist priests decided for themselves that some new liturgical changes of late 1950's( that were seldom used and rather obscure)....was too much for them to handle??

I have observed that a number of Catholics are going back to the NO because of the scandals in the sedevacantist movement.

Just as you have no anwser to the questions I have posed to you, so I do not have "statistics" or graphs or anything like that. I certainly am not one to give out names.

You are missing the point entirely: this not just about clerics who do as they please regarding matters liturgical whilst availing themselves of what appears to be an arbitrary criterion, which they go on to make into a categorical imperative, binding principle. This is about the whole inconsistency of the "movement" itself, of which the lack of ecclesiastical discipline is but a manifestation.

In addition, I have been around in the sede world since the early 80's and very active in the Web world. I have witnessed no notable controversy in real life or on the Web about the 55+ changes. It has been a very minor disagreement without any sense of "flaking out". Hobbs is the first I have seen.

However, you see only what you wish to see. If you have not seen any controversy regarding certain clerics' attitudes regarding the reforms of Pope Pius XII and the decrees of the Congregation of Sacred Rites, then perhaps it behooves you to converse with those do not agree with you regarding these matters.

Hobbs made the claim in the same sentence as asking, "do you think I am making this up?", yet not quick to back it up.

I was not referring to the fact that people are leaving the "movement" but of the controversy regarding the liturgical reforms duly promulgated by the Apostolic See and how they are defied and vilified by certain clerics, and the great ramifications such praxis entails: you seemed to have implied that I was the one who was dramatizing the controversy, if not instigating it altogether. In this you are quite mistaken.

You and others seem to be either not attentively reading what I am writing or you are just picking whatever you can and make it into a tangential point upon which to discuss.

You also seem bent on discrediting me, picturing me as "emotional," a tactic used before by others:

I think emotions and wishful thinking are presuming too much. I think the intuition has failed on that point...

I have posed to you various questions, none of which you have deigned to address, offering nothing but ad hominems and what outsiders may rightfully name "cult propaganda" in response to the issues raised in the notes.

Yes, "cult propaganda," because either you obey Holy Mother Church or are part of a cult, just like a soul cannot be simultaneously in the state of sanctifying grace and in the state of mortal sin: for the question is whether or not the clerics who seem to be doing as they please are striving to preserve the Church of Christ, or are they endeavoring to propagate their own ideas. None of the present day clerics in the sedevacantist movement can say that they form part of the Ecclesia docens, so what is to guide the clerics themselves in their apostolates if not filial and reverent obedience to the decrees of the Roman Congregations, duly promulgated by authority of the Supreme Pontiff?

Do you not see how problematic this truly is?

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: Cupertino

Okay, now, let's consider those 3 people. You REALLY think they were convinced of the sede position and solely because "some" priests of that persuasion decided that a few minor and seldom used liturgical implementations in the late 50's no longer applied, they went off the deep end to the Novus ordo or giving up the Faith entirely?!  That is just so unreasonable.

I think you need to re-read what I was responding to; it was over a general statement, not because of one specific practice:

Quote

People are seeing the inconsistencies and they are leaving back to the NO or are defecting from the faith altogether, as they are beginning to be scandalized at the fact that the sedevacantists have made of Holy Mother Church the very thing of which the Prophet Jeremias complained in his Lamentations, which will be soon read at First Nocturn at Matins.

Cupertino- I think I am not the right person for engaging in discussions with, and our discourse is proving fruitless and lame. I'm sorry my eagerness to discuss subjects took over and I even responded to this; please disregard my post.

In general, those like you, LordPhan, Hobbledehoy, SJB, all abort discussion because it doesn't go your way. Discussion is discussion, and can last many, many, many posts, but as soon as you all find it doesn't go well, you back out, saying you don't have time, or it is fruitless. So, so typical of people who don't really have the truth in a matter.

You haven't even attempted to answer me. You're the one who usually finds a way to "back out" of a discussion.

In addition, I have been around in the sede world since the early 80's and very active in the Web world. I have witnessed no notable controversy in real life or on the Web about the 55+ changes. It has been a very minor disagreement without any sense of "flaking out". Hobbs is the first I have seen.

And you have quite a habit, spanning decades, of inserting yourself into controversies, even personal ones. You've appeared here, under multiple personalities, to ARGUE. That's your MO.