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Author Topic: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?  (Read 1558 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
« on: November 06, 2021, 07:25:16 PM »
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  • I would like a refutation of not sedevacantism itself, but the radical strain promoted by the Dimonds which leads people to refuse communion with Catholics just because they aren't sede. I was in a chat earlier and this Dimondite called me a skeptic, claimed I was blind, and that I have no faith just because I choose not to become sede as I don't want to risk being in schism. I need some arguments to show that sedevacantism isn't something that you are bound under pain of mortal sin to embrace. Does Fr. Chazal have any good arguments? I know he wrote a book against dogmatic sedevacantism. This Dimondite strain of sedevacantism seems very dangerous and schismatic. 
    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #1 on: November 06, 2021, 07:52:39 PM »
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  • I was in a chat earlier and this Dimondite called me a...

    That's your problem right there.

    You can't argue with deluded zealots -- of any stripe. If you won't take the most basic advice most members of this forum would give you -- to just LEAVE THEM ALONE -- then any further advice we would give you would just be wasted here.

    There's nothing you can say, no slam-dunk argument, that's going to make them say, "You know, you might be right..." NO. Not gonna happen.

    Look up in the Bible the passage about putting your pearls before swine. Google it on DRBO.org.

    Never argue with a crazy person. 10 year olds used to be taught that pearl of wisdom.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #2 on: November 06, 2021, 07:58:50 PM »
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  • Simple: the Church has not defined anything regarding the vacancy of the Holy See since 1958. Not. A. Thing.

    Therefore, there is no sin involved in not holding a sedevacantist position, because it is all a matter of theological opinion until the Church speaks on it.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #3 on: November 06, 2021, 08:06:24 PM »
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  • Doesn't Father Chazal hold views close to a sedeprivationist? I found this thread here on cathinfo from a few years ago;

    Is Fr. Chazal Sedeprivationist? - page 1 - SSPX Resistance News - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2021, 09:41:58 PM »
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  • Simple: the Church has not defined anything regarding the vacancy of the Holy See since 1958. Not. A. Thing.

    Therefore, there is no sin involved in not holding a sedevacantist position, because it is all a matter of theological opinion until the Church speaks on it.

    Yep.  Their error lies in believing that because they can construct a syllogism with one premise that’s dogmatic, then the conclusion must be dogmatic.  False.  I’ll elaborate on this more later when I have time.

    Clue/Hint/Preview:  peiorem partem sequitur conclusio

    Bishop Sanborn’s famous tract condemning what he calls “opinionism” is the seminal manifesto for the dogmatic sedevacantist position.




    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #5 on: November 06, 2021, 09:44:01 PM »
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  • Fr. Chazal touched on it a bit and made some solid points that I’ll also summarize later.  It’s getting late now.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #6 on: November 07, 2021, 05:48:07 AM »
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  • Yep.  Their error lies in believing that because they can construct a syllogism with one premise that’s dogmatic, then the conclusion must be dogmatic.  False.  I’ll elaborate on this more later when I have time.

    Clue/Hint/Preview:  peiorem partem sequitur conclusio

    Bishop Sanborn’s famous tract condemning what he calls “opinionism” is the seminal manifesto for the dogmatic sedevacantist position.

    THEIR ERROR is right. They are in error, and they let it affect their practice of religion and how they treat others -- you know, like heretics, schismatics, pagans...

    You're absolutely right. The conclusion is only as strong as the weakest part of the argument. These idiots think that because "this is about God, religion, dogma" that anything they conclude about it is also dogma. They obviously haven't spent a day in a seminary classroom, or studied theology with any seriousness.

    To use a modern expression, "Do you even theology, bro?"

    They think that just because they're talking about God, religion, the Catholic Church, and dogmas, that their own OPINIONS on these weighty topics are automatically hands-off, case-closed, beyond-debate dogmas as well! And they act accordingly, condemning all and sundry who disagree with them.

    These clowns ask us to follow them, to trust them with our souls, to financially support them -- and here they are ignorant of the FIRST PRINCIPLES of theology and basic argumentation! 

    They want to work on designing interplanetary probes for NASA, but they don't know that 2+2 = 4, or that X + Y is always the same as Y + X.

    The devil is laughing. And if it wasn't so tragic, evil, and damaging to many souls of good will, I would be laughing at these fools as well.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #7 on: November 07, 2021, 06:03:11 AM »
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  • THEIR ERROR is right. They are in error, and they let it affect their practice of religion and how they treat others -- you know, like heretics, schismatics, pagans...

    You're absolutely right. The conclusion is only as strong as the weakest part of the argument. These idiots think that because "this is about God, religion, dogma" that anything they conclude about it is also dogma. They obviously haven't spent a day in a seminary classroom, or studied theology with any seriousness.

    Let’s be fair, the same can be said of those who are dogmatic R&R.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #8 on: November 07, 2021, 06:05:36 AM »
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  • Let’s be fair, the same can be said of those who are dogmatic R&R.

    I'm always fair.
    If the shoe fits, wear it. It applies to 100% of those it applies to, of course!

    But if you are interested in turning this into a fight, naming names, then COUNT ME OUT, for that's a whole different story. I don't need WW3 right now. On CathInfo or anywhere else.

    It's Sunday, the Lord's Day. Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #9 on: November 07, 2021, 06:23:26 AM »
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  • I'm always fair.
    If the shoe fits, wear it. It applies to 100% of those it applies to, of course!

    But if you are interested in turning this into a fight, naming names, then COUNT ME OUT, for that's a whole different story. I don't need WW3 right now. On CathInfo or anywhere else.

    It's Sunday, the Lord's Day. Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.


    Agreed!  :cowboy:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #10 on: November 07, 2021, 06:42:16 AM »
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  • Let’s be fair, the same can be said of those who are dogmatic R&R.
    You mean like the most recent Salza thread?  :laugh1: :fryingpan:

    Who's really making things into a fight?  Same ole same ole here.

    Oh, and I'll save you some time Sean:  "the sedevacantist cries out in pain"  :laugh2:


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #11 on: November 07, 2021, 06:48:36 AM »
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  • You mean like the most recent Salza thread?  :laugh1: :fryingpan:


    :laugh1: I’ve had that “emotional train wreck” on ignore for months now. His hatred for liberals is ONLY rivaled by his hatred for those of us who hold the sedevacantist position. Frankly, I can’t see how a person like that can receive Holy Communion worthily with his hatred for his fellow Catholics solidly in his heart.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #12 on: November 07, 2021, 06:52:52 AM »
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  • Who's really making things into a fight?  Same ole same ole here.

    Oh, and I'll save you some time Sean:  "the sedevacantist cries out in pain"  :laugh2:


    😂😂😂
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #13 on: November 07, 2021, 06:55:55 AM »
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  • :laugh1: I’ve had that “emotional train wreck” on ignore for months now. His hatred for liberals is ONLY rivaled by his hatred for those of us who hold the sedevacantist position. Frankly, I can’t see how a person like that can receive Holy Communion worthily with his hatred for fellow Catholics solidly in his heart.

    BTW: In all seriousness, I write this with an intention to convert his prideful heart.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline In Principio

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    Re: Refutation of Dogmatic Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #14 on: November 07, 2021, 11:08:41 AM »
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  • I would like a refutation of not sedevacantism itself, but the radical strain promoted by the Dimonds which leads people to refuse communion with Catholics just because they aren't sede. I was in a chat earlier and this Dimondite called me a skeptic, claimed I was blind, and that I have no faith just because I choose not to become sede as I don't want to risk being in schism. I need some arguments to show that sedevacantism isn't something that you are bound under pain of mortal sin to embrace. Does Fr. Chazal have any good arguments? I know he wrote a book against dogmatic sedevacantism. This Dimondite strain of sedevacantism seems very dangerous and schismatic.

    This section of Rev. Arthur Devine’s “The Creed Explained” (1897) should be helpful:


    Quote
    4. The Vatican Council declares, “ Fide divinâ et Catholicâ ea omnia credenda sunt, quae in verbo Dei Scripto vel tradito continentur, et ab Ecclesia, sive solemni judicio, sive ordinario et universali magisterio, tanquam divinitus revelata proponunter":

    "By divine and Catholic Faith are to be believed all those things which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down by tradition, and proposed by the Church as divinely revealed, either by her solemn judgments, or by her ordinary and universal teaching.”

    It may be asked, What are the truths that we must receive as revealed by God, and as proposed by the Church, and that we have to believe by divine-Catholic faith?

    5. These truths may be classed under the following beads:-

    (a) All those truths that are so clearly contained in Sacred Scripture that no one can doubt or mistake their meaning, viz., the Nativity of Christ, His death and resurrection, &c.
    (b) The truths that are obscurely contained in the Sacred Scriptures, but declared by the Church to be therein contained, such as the definition or declaration of the true sense of any text of Scripture.
    (c) Those truths that are expressly defined by the Church to be of faith, or whose contradictories are condemned as heretical, viz., That there are Seven Sacraments of the New Law; That we cannot merit beatitude or perform salutary works without the aid of God's grace.
    (d) The truths that are handed down to us by divine tradition, and which the Church has always held and declared, or manifested by her doctrine and practice, such as her doctrine regarding Guardian Angels, Infant Baptism, the Canonical Books of Scripture, &c.

    All the truths contained under these heads are revealed or inspired by God, and declared or defined by the Church; and, therefore, to be believed by divine-Catholic faith. It is not necessary to have an explicit definition of the Church for every text of Scripture, and for those portions of the Sacred Scriptures whose sense can be clearly known to any one who reads them; neither is there need of an explicit definition in regard to those truths which are known to all as handed down by divine tradition. When a doubt has arisen with regard to any proposition, as to whether it is contained in Scripture or tradition, the Church, through the divine assistance, defines the truth of its revelation, or condemns it if it is opposed to revelation. This she has done whenever she has judged it necessary for the preservation of the deposit of faith committed to her by her Divine Founder. She has defined what we have to believe as divinely revealed, and condemned errors opposed to revealed doctrine whenever this was necessary for the preservation of faith and morals.

    6. How are we to regard propositions that are deduced from revealed premises, and that are, therefore, necessarily connected with our faith and its preservation? For example:

    (a) Propositions or Conclusions drawn from two revealed premises by evident reasoning, viz.: All the Apostles received the Holy Spirit; but St. John was Apostle, therefore St. John received the Holy Spirit.
    (b) Propositions or Conclusions deduced from one premise revealed, and the other only evident to reason, viz.: A baptized child is sanctified; but this child is baptized, therefore this child is sanctified. Or again: A consecrated host is to be adored; but this host is consecrated, therefore this host is to be adored. Or again: Whatever is defined by an Ecuмenical Council is to be believed; but the Council of Trent was an Ecuмenical Council, therefore its definitions are to be believed.

    Are these conclusions to be considered as coming under the object of faith? And again, what are we to hold in connection with the object of faith, with regard to singular propositions contained in revealed universal propositions, or propositions virtually contained in revealed truths?

    A conclusion as such is not an object of faith, but merely the result of human reasoning. And a proposition, to be of faith, must be immediately revealed by God, and received on His authority. Propositions or conclusions such as are here given, may be said to be more certain than the conclusions arrived at by mere natural science, because they are founded on and deduced from revealed dogmas; and they have, therefore, a certain amount of divine authority, as they are so closely connected with revealed truths.

    7. A rule is laid down for deciding whether a conclusion of this kind belongs to faith or not, namely: If the conclusion be formally and immediately contained in the premises, or in the premise which is of faith as a part is contained in the whole or a singular in a universal, and if the deduction be only a further explanation of the premises, and does not introduce any new idea into the definition, such a proposition or conclusion would be the object of faith, and is to be believed as such. If it be not formally, but only virtually contained in the premises as an effect in a cause, the conclusion is not to be believed by divine faith because it is not the object of faith, but a deduction of reason. It is, however, often said to belong to faith indirectly, in as much as by denying a conclusion of this kind the revealed premises from which it is deduced are indirectly denied.

    Other propositions, which are not clearly and immediately revealed by God, or which are not deduced by reason from divine truths, but are taught by the Fathers and Theologians as certain and true, are said to be received on ecclesiastical faith. They are not the objects of divine faith, and they are received by something more than mere human faith, and may be said, therefore, to be believed by a certain ecclesiastical faith. This faith is sometimes called divine (though in reality it is not divine), because its act may proceed from the divine virtue which is in us, and the dispositions which it creates in the soul.

    As to these few questions which I have here introduced, we have no definition of the Church, and I only state the received teaching of Theologians on such points for the purpose of meeting captious objections, after the manner of Dr. Littledale's “Plain Reasons,” that may, from time to time, be urged against the Catholic faith and doctrine. For this purpose, it is necessary to explain even critical questions from a Catholic point of view that the enemies of the Church may not be credited with inventing objections that she has long ago considered and rejected, and thereby do harm to the faithful and others.
     
    (pp. 6-9)
    https://archive.org/details/creedexplainedor00devirich

     "The faithful should obey the apostolic advice not to know more than is necessary, but to know in moderation." - Pope Clement XIII, In Dominico Agro (1761)