Author Topic: Refusals (Read 2885 times)

Prodinoscopus · « **on:** June 29, 2009, 06:24:45 PM »

1. I refuse to give my assent to any theological error or evident heresy, even if it is taught by the Pope himself.

Therefore, I refuse to say that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics, or that the Mosaic Covenant is still valid and salvific for Judaics.

2. I refuse to usurp any declaratory judgment that is reserved by divine right to the public authority of the Church.

Therefore, I refuse to declare that Pope Benedict XVI has evicted himself from office by reason of his apparent adherence to theological error or evident heresy.

For what it's worth.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 29, 2009, 07:39:27 PM »

But Prodino, the Church is now the traditional bishops and priests.

What you call the "Church" -- VII -- is not going to make a declaratory judgment on itself. That would be like asking a burglar to slap handcuffs on himself.

It's all well and good that you don't want to reject the Pope, but by doing so you are saying that the Church can teach error. So you have kept the "Pope" -- who isn't a Pope -- while rejecting the Church.

This is a form of Papalotry that goes well beyond the dogma of papal infallibility. It is almost Jesuit -- "If the Pope says black is white, and white is black, we will go along with it," as St. Ignatius of Loyola said. But what if the Pope says, "God is not God, and not-God is God." What would St. Ignatius do then?

Caminus · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2009, 12:25:55 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

But Prodino, the Church is now the traditional bishops and priests.

That's schism, plain and simple.

Quote

What you call the "Church" -- VII -- is not going to make a declaratory judgment on itself. That would be like asking a burglar to slap handcuffs on himself.

And you reason from this that its okay to usurp judgment?

Quote

It's all well and good that you don't want to reject the Pope, but by doing so you are saying that the Church can teach error. So you have kept the "Pope" -- who isn't a Pope -- while rejecting the Church.

No, he's not saying that the "Church can teach error." Prelates can, even Popes, even Council's that do not utilize any safeguards, but not the Church itself in its authoritative exercise of the magisterium.

Quote

This is a form of Papalotry that goes well beyond the dogma of papal infallibility. It is almost Jesuit -- "If the Pope says black is white, and white is black, we will go along with it," as St. Ignatius of Loyola said. But what if the Pope says, "God is not God, and not-God is God." What would St. Ignatius do then?

No it's not. Refusing to usurp judgment is not "Popalotry." You fail at even the most basic of distinctions. Nor is he saying that in his refusal to render a judgment, that "we will go along with it." He just said precisely the opposite. Can you not read? All the hypotheticals aside, your position regarding concrete facts is quite untenable.

CM · « **Reply #3 on:** June 30, 2009, 12:43:13 AM »

Prodinoscopus, if you refuse to give assent to any heresy, then what you must do is refuse to assent to the proposition, which states that a manifest heretic is a Catholic, especially one who should darnwell know better.

Florence, Sess 11: "all those outside the Church... [including] heretics and schismatics..." It's a dogma that heretics are outside the Church.

Is your 'pope', who helped develop and now continues to push Vatican II, a Catholic?

You are forced to judge whether you like it or not. You have to make one of the follwing judgments:

1) that a manifestly heretical and apostate man is still somehow Catholic and a pope

2) that a manifestly heretical and apostate man is not Catholic but still somehow a pope

3) that a manifestly heretical and apostate man is neither Catholic nor a pope

Whatever you choose to do, you are still judging. Have the courage to judge rightly.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2009, 02:01:11 AM »

Quote from: Prodinoscopus

2. I refuse to usurp any declaratory judgment that is reserved by divine right to the public authority of the Church.

Therefore, I refuse to declare that Pope Benedict XVI has evicted himself from office by reason of his apparent adherence to theological error or evident heresy.

Even in stating that I believe it is a fact that BXVI is a non-Catholic (and, a fortiori, a non-Pope), this is not the same as an ecclesiastical declaration - nor is it meant to be taken as such. All talk to the contrary is a red herring, meant to frighten others away from dealing with reality as it is (which is not always reflected all that quickly, and sometimes not at all, in the order of law).

CM · « **Reply #5 on:** June 30, 2009, 02:08:52 AM »

Gladius Veritatis, very well said.

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2009, 02:57:16 AM »

But only a council or another (future) pope can declare him as such. He may be an antipope before God; but before the church, he is the still a pope untill those who have the authority declare him an antipope.

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #7 on:** June 30, 2009, 03:00:18 AM »

Quote

Even though there is a serious probability that the conciliar Popes can have fallen into heresy and, as such, stop being Catholics before God, they continue to be recognized as Popes before the visible Church. For them to cease to be recognized as Popes, one of two conditions must be met: either the due authority must declare them heretics, or their heresy must become known throughout all the Catholic Church.

Until this happens, they are still Popes before the visible Church. Consequently their sacramental and juridical acts are valid. In these points they should be obeyed. They should be resisted insofar as they attack, deny, or boycott the previous Catholic Magisterium and Tradition.

To serve the Catholic cause well in this sad situation, one should spread as much as possible the progressivist errors to which the conciliar Popes adhere. Doing this, we call them to convert and, at the same time, enlighten the faithful not to follow the same errors. Thus, the exposition of their errors is done for the glory of God and His Church, and also it helps to show the whole Church that they fell into error.

To leave the Church and found parallel institutions such as the sede-vacantists do only adds more confusion to the present chaotic situation, even though it is understandable as a reaction of insecurity and self-defense to avoid the progressivist errors. This is a simplistic solution based on an extremely simplistic reasoning: because the Popes fell into heresy they completly lost the papacy, and the entire Church who follows them is no longer Catholic. Like many simplistic solutions, this one is wrong, it cuts the living flesh of the Church, and the new institutions that adopt it run a grave risk of falling into Protestantism.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/E033_Sedevantism01.htm

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2009, 03:03:26 AM »

Annas and Caiphas were confirmed by The Holy Ghost because of their authority, though they wanted to kill The Son of God:
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f025ht_Sedevacantim.htm

Is Sede-Vacantism an Ally of Progressivism?

http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/B277_SedeProgres.html

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #9 on:** June 30, 2009, 03:06:21 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

But only a council or another (future) pope can declare him as such.

This is true where a legal, binding declaration is concerned. Likewise, if I witness a man commit murder, he may not ever be declared so in the order of law - but I will always hold him to be a murderer in the order of fact.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #10 on:** June 30, 2009, 03:10:33 AM »

Btw, the REAL issue is NOT this or that man who claims to be Pontiff. The REAL issue is that there is an obviously-COUNTERFEIT Church that has usurped the name and buildings of the Catholic Church. This counterfeit has done NOTHING, for over 40 years, but destroy the Faith in the minds and hearts of hundreds of millions. The rotten fruit is how it is known to be an impostor.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 30, 2009, 03:16:37 AM »

"Even in stating that I believe it is a fact that BXVI is a non-Catholic (and, a fortiori, a non-Pope)..."

This is a crucial part of the armory against those who say we're judging the "Pope." He is not a non-Pope before being a non-Catholic. It's the other way around. He is not a Catholic and that means he can't be Pope.

However, unless we are near the Second Coming, someone WILL have to do the unthinkable and judge these "Popes," deposing them legally so there can be a true Pope, with the Council of Constance as our model.

Some sedevacantists say "We have no legal right to depose anyone" but actually they do. The true bishops and priests who rejected VII can very well start calling themselves the true Catholic Church because that's what they are.

It's just that if we elected a Pope now, it would make us look like homegrown eccentrics like David Bawden. There has to be a substantial turnaround in the Catholic ranks before we can name a Pope. Many will have to wake up that the VII Church is an anti-Church.

This is why I say that the SSPX is harmful, because it's keeping traditionalists allied, however tenuously, with the "robber Church" as Patrick Henry Omlor calls it. This keeps the sedevacantists as a fringe minority, relegated to the shadows, and allows the Godzilla monster of VII to rampage unchecked.

CM · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2009, 12:16:49 AM »

We need an army of Catholics who hold the whole Faith whole and inviolate (and reject the BoD heresy, among other things) to march on the Vatican and demand Benedict XVI and his cronies surrender or eat lead.

May God grant it.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2009, 01:52:35 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

We need an army of Catholics who hold the whole Faith whole and inviolate (and reject the BoD heresy, among other things) to march on the Vatican and demand Benedict XVI and his cronies surrender or eat lead.

I am SHOCKED you worked BoD into this thread, CM - truly. :wink:

DeMaistre · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2009, 07:24:09 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

We need an army of Catholics who hold the whole Faith whole and inviolate (and reject the BoD heresy, among other things) to march on the Vatican and demand Benedict XVI and his cronies surrender or eat lead.

May God grant it.

Haha...well, four people is a start.