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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 23630 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #225 on: January 23, 2024, 01:50:31 PM »
Angelus,

My apologies, I had not noticed you had given the reference already in the thread.

However, I do not think one can, ordinarily, just dismiss the decrees of the Roman Congregations.  They act with delegated authority of the Holy See.  Only a relatively small amount of Church Law is promulgated directly by the Pope by Apostolic Constitutions, by motu proprio, Apostolic letter etc.  If something is not directly issued by the Pope can it simply be ignored?

The changes to Holy Week were signed by the Cardinal Prefect of the SCR and its Secretary, not by Pius XII - are they not binding?

For the record if I were in orders I would not name St Joseph in the Canon.
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You are absolutely correct that Catholics are obliged to accept the decisions of the Roman Congregations. In fact, St. Pius X condemned this very argument by saying that it is wrong for Catholics to ignore what the Church commands by saying the command does not come from the pope but from people in his entourage, i.e. the congregations.

The Pius XII holy week is a bit of a complex subject. Certainly it was binding at the time he issued it. But there are reasons to think that he would not want us to use it 65 years after his death:

1) He would see that these changes in the liturgy paved the way for the new mass, which he could not have foreseen when he issued these changed; and
2) He only issued the 1955 Holy Week as a trial liturgy, meaning that it was an experiment, and was therefore a temporary measure. The problem is that he died a couple of years later, so he had no time to review the results of the experiment and decide whether to keep it or not. On the contrary, the traditional Holy Week rite is permanent. So, on a basic level, if a superior issues a temporary order and then dies shortly afterwards, the logical thing is to revert back to the permanent instruction if there is no superior to ask for clarification.

This is basically why a lot of sedevacantist priests do not use the 1955 Holy Week despite the fact that it came from a true pope.

Offline Yeti

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #226 on: January 23, 2024, 02:04:42 PM »
.

This is typical of the kind of arguments Canon Hesse makes. Dubious facts supporting false principles with bad logic.

The story is questionable to begin with, but if it's true it's pretty obvious that it's a joke, and it doesn't come anywhere near indicating that Pius IX thought he had no power to put St. Joseph's name in the canon. A pope has the power to change the liturgy, and the Council of Trent didn't say otherwise.
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I should walk this back a little. Canon Hesse (unfortunately invalidly ordained) was repeating a lot of the questionable arguments that people came up with in the early days after Vatican 2, which have since been refuted. People knew they couldn't follow Vatican 2 or the new mass, but they didn't know why, or rather, the research to understand what was going on in the Church didn't exist yet. So it isn't surprising that people doing their best just came up with a lot of ideas that were the best they could think of, but that doesn't mean we should still adhere to those ideas today. I'm talking about things like how Paul VI didn't fill out the form correctly when he issued the Novus Ordo, so everyone can just ignore it, or how he wasn't a formal heretic because he didn't say that he was rejecting Catholic dogma (I had actually never heard of that bizarre argument), or that the universal laws of the Church enjoy no protection from the Holy Ghost, or that a pope can teach any heresy to the whole Church as long as he is not speaking ex cathedra, and so on.


Offline Angelus

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #227 on: January 23, 2024, 02:12:37 PM »
Angelus,

My apologies, I had not noticed you had given the reference already in the thread.

However, I do not think one can, ordinarily, just dismiss the decrees of the Roman Congregations.  They act with delegated authority of the Holy See.  Only a relatively small amount of Church Law is promulgated directly by the Pope by Apostolic Constitutions, by motu proprio, Apostolic letter etc.  If something is not directly issued by the Pope can it simply be ignored?

The changes to Holy Week were signed by the Cardinal Prefect of the SCR and its Secretary, not by Pius XII - are they not binding?

For the record if I were in orders I would not name St Joseph in the Canon.

Far from having the power to change the Canon of the Mass, the Congregation is supposed to make sure it is "diligently observed." No one, after Trent and Quo Primum, could change the Canon of the Mass.


Catholic Encyclopedia
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03255c.htm

Quote
There were, however, additions made to the "Communicantes" so as to introduce special allusions on certain feasts; the two lists of saints, in the "Communicantes" and "Nobis quoque peccatoribus", were enlarged so as to include various local people, and even the "Hanc igitur" and the "Qui pridie" were modified on certain days. The Council of Trent (1545-63) restrained this tendency and ordered that "the holy Canon composed many centuries ago" should be kept pure and unchanged; it also condemned those who say that the "Canon of the Mass contains errors and should be abolished" (Sess. XXII., cap. iv. can. vi; Denzinger, 819, 830). Pope Pius V (1566-72) published an authentic edition of the Roman Missal in 1570, and accompanied it with a Bull forbidding anyone to either add, or in any way change any part of it.

Council of Trent Session VII
http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm

CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.


Council of Trent Session XXII
http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm

CHAPTER IV:
On the Canon of the Mass. And whereas it beseemeth, that holy things be administered in a holy manner, and of all holy things this sacrifice is the most holy; to the end that it might be worthily and reverently offered and received, the Catholic Church instituted, many years ago, the sacred Canon, so pure from every error, that nothing is contained therein which does not in the highest degree savour of a certain holiness and piety, and raise up unto God the minds of those that offer. For it is composed, out of the very words of the Lord, the traditions of the apostles, and the pious institutions also of holy pontiffs.

CANON VI.--If any one saith, that the canon of the mass contains errors, and is therefore to be abrogated; let him be anathema.


1917 Canon Law

Canon 253 (NA) Cross-Ref.: 1917 CIC 1999

§ 1. The Congregation for Sacred Rites has authority to see and establish all those things that
proximately involve the sacred rites and ceremonies of the Latin Church, but not which refer to
sacred rites in the wide sense, things like the right of precedence and others of this sort, which are
treated either in the judicial order or in the disciplinary line.
§ 2. It is for it especially to be vigilant that the sacred rites and ceremonies are diligently
observed in celebrating the Sacred [Synax], in the administration of Sacraments, in conducting
divine offices, and in all those things that respect cult in the Latin Church; [it can] grant opportune
dispensations; it can give out insignia and privileges of honor whether personal or for a time,
whether to places or perpetually, in matters affecting sacred rites and ceremonies, and shall take
care lest these fall into abuse.
§ 3. Finally all those things that pertain to the beatification and canonization of the Servants of
God or to sacred relics in any way are referred to it.


Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #228 on: January 23, 2024, 05:02:52 PM »
No, Texana, you misunderstood what I said. I said nothing about the practices of the SSPX. As anyone can see from looking at the SSPX-published Angelus Missal, the SSPX priests DO INCLUDE the St. Joseph addition in the Canon of the Mass.
The angelus missal also does not include the 2nd confiteor but my priests do say it, so I am not sure if they actually follow that missal.

Also what about the kiss of peace?

Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #229 on: February 08, 2024, 07:40:01 AM »
The angelus missal also does not include the 2nd confiteor but my priests do say it, so I am not sure if they actually follow that missal.

Also what about the kiss of peace?
Dear AnthonyPadua,

"1. The Pax or kiss of peace is the ceremonial embrace and kiss, in sign of fraternal charity, which is given during solemn Mass to all the clergy present and to those engaged in the service of the altar." (p.429) For more information please read: "The Celebration of the Mass, A Study of the Rubrics of the Roman Missal" Rev. J.B O'Connell, The Bruce Publishing Co. Milwaukee.1964. This edition has the updated rubrics of 1960.