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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 13276 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #225 on: January 23, 2024, 01:50:31 PM »
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  • Angelus,

    My apologies, I had not noticed you had given the reference already in the thread.

    However, I do not think one can, ordinarily, just dismiss the decrees of the Roman Congregations.  They act with delegated authority of the Holy See.  Only a relatively small amount of Church Law is promulgated directly by the Pope by Apostolic Constitutions, by motu proprio, Apostolic letter etc.  If something is not directly issued by the Pope can it simply be ignored?

    The changes to Holy Week were signed by the Cardinal Prefect of the SCR and its Secretary, not by Pius XII - are they not binding?

    For the record if I were in orders I would not name St Joseph in the Canon.
    .

    You are absolutely correct that Catholics are obliged to accept the decisions of the Roman Congregations. In fact, St. Pius X condemned this very argument by saying that it is wrong for Catholics to ignore what the Church commands by saying the command does not come from the pope but from people in his entourage, i.e. the congregations.

    The Pius XII holy week is a bit of a complex subject. Certainly it was binding at the time he issued it. But there are reasons to think that he would not want us to use it 65 years after his death:

    1) He would see that these changes in the liturgy paved the way for the new mass, which he could not have foreseen when he issued these changed; and
    2) He only issued the 1955 Holy Week as a trial liturgy, meaning that it was an experiment, and was therefore a temporary measure. The problem is that he died a couple of years later, so he had no time to review the results of the experiment and decide whether to keep it or not. On the contrary, the traditional Holy Week rite is permanent. So, on a basic level, if a superior issues a temporary order and then dies shortly afterwards, the logical thing is to revert back to the permanent instruction if there is no superior to ask for clarification.

    This is basically why a lot of sedevacantist priests do not use the 1955 Holy Week despite the fact that it came from a true pope.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #226 on: January 23, 2024, 02:04:42 PM »
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  • .

    This is typical of the kind of arguments Canon Hesse makes. Dubious facts supporting false principles with bad logic.

    The story is questionable to begin with, but if it's true it's pretty obvious that it's a joke, and it doesn't come anywhere near indicating that Pius IX thought he had no power to put St. Joseph's name in the canon. A pope has the power to change the liturgy, and the Council of Trent didn't say otherwise.
    .

    I should walk this back a little. Canon Hesse (unfortunately invalidly ordained) was repeating a lot of the questionable arguments that people came up with in the early days after Vatican 2, which have since been refuted. People knew they couldn't follow Vatican 2 or the new mass, but they didn't know why, or rather, the research to understand what was going on in the Church didn't exist yet. So it isn't surprising that people doing their best just came up with a lot of ideas that were the best they could think of, but that doesn't mean we should still adhere to those ideas today. I'm talking about things like how Paul VI didn't fill out the form correctly when he issued the Novus Ordo, so everyone can just ignore it, or how he wasn't a formal heretic because he didn't say that he was rejecting Catholic dogma (I had actually never heard of that bizarre argument), or that the universal laws of the Church enjoy no protection from the Holy Ghost, or that a pope can teach any heresy to the whole Church as long as he is not speaking ex cathedra, and so on.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #227 on: January 23, 2024, 02:12:37 PM »
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  • Angelus,

    My apologies, I had not noticed you had given the reference already in the thread.

    However, I do not think one can, ordinarily, just dismiss the decrees of the Roman Congregations.  They act with delegated authority of the Holy See.  Only a relatively small amount of Church Law is promulgated directly by the Pope by Apostolic Constitutions, by motu proprio, Apostolic letter etc.  If something is not directly issued by the Pope can it simply be ignored?

    The changes to Holy Week were signed by the Cardinal Prefect of the SCR and its Secretary, not by Pius XII - are they not binding?

    For the record if I were in orders I would not name St Joseph in the Canon.

    Far from having the power to change the Canon of the Mass, the Congregation is supposed to make sure it is "diligently observed." No one, after Trent and Quo Primum, could change the Canon of the Mass.


    Catholic Encyclopedia
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03255c.htm

    Quote
    There were, however, additions made to the "Communicantes" so as to introduce special allusions on certain feasts; the two lists of saints, in the "Communicantes" and "Nobis quoque peccatoribus", were enlarged so as to include various local people, and even the "Hanc igitur" and the "Qui pridie" were modified on certain days. The Council of Trent (1545-63) restrained this tendency and ordered that "the holy Canon composed many centuries ago" should be kept pure and unchanged; it also condemned those who say that the "Canon of the Mass contains errors and should be abolished" (Sess. XXII., cap. iv. can. vi; Denzinger, 819, 830). Pope Pius V (1566-72) published an authentic edition of the Roman Missal in 1570, and accompanied it with a Bull forbidding anyone to either add, or in any way change any part of it.

    Council of Trent Session VII
    http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm

    CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.


    Council of Trent Session XXII
    http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm

    CHAPTER IV:
    On the Canon of the Mass. And whereas it beseemeth, that holy things be administered in a holy manner, and of all holy things this sacrifice is the most holy; to the end that it might be worthily and reverently offered and received, the Catholic Church instituted, many years ago, the sacred Canon, so pure from every error, that nothing is contained therein which does not in the highest degree savour of a certain holiness and piety, and raise up unto God the minds of those that offer. For it is composed, out of the very words of the Lord, the traditions of the apostles, and the pious institutions also of holy pontiffs.

    CANON VI.--If any one saith, that the canon of the mass contains errors, and is therefore to be abrogated; let him be anathema.


    1917 Canon Law

    Canon 253 (NA) Cross-Ref.: 1917 CIC 1999

    § 1. The Congregation for Sacred Rites has authority to see and establish all those things that
    proximately involve the sacred rites and ceremonies of the Latin Church, but not which refer to
    sacred rites in the wide sense, things like the right of precedence and others of this sort, which are
    treated either in the judicial order or in the disciplinary line.
    § 2. It is for it especially to be vigilant that the sacred rites and ceremonies are diligently
    observed in celebrating the Sacred [Synax], in the administration of Sacraments, in conducting
    divine offices, and in all those things that respect cult in the Latin Church; [it can] grant opportune
    dispensations; it can give out insignia and privileges of honor whether personal or for a time,
    whether to places or perpetually, in matters affecting sacred rites and ceremonies, and shall take
    care lest these fall into abuse.
    § 3. Finally all those things that pertain to the beatification and canonization of the Servants of
    God or to sacred relics in any way are referred to it.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #228 on: January 23, 2024, 05:02:52 PM »
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  • No, Texana, you misunderstood what I said. I said nothing about the practices of the SSPX. As anyone can see from looking at the SSPX-published Angelus Missal, the SSPX priests DO INCLUDE the St. Joseph addition in the Canon of the Mass.
    The angelus missal also does not include the 2nd confiteor but my priests do say it, so I am not sure if they actually follow that missal.

    Also what about the kiss of peace?

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #229 on: February 08, 2024, 07:40:01 AM »
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  • The angelus missal also does not include the 2nd confiteor but my priests do say it, so I am not sure if they actually follow that missal.

    Also what about the kiss of peace?
    Dear AnthonyPadua,

    "1. The Pax or kiss of peace is the ceremonial embrace and kiss, in sign of fraternal charity, which is given during solemn Mass to all the clergy present and to those engaged in the service of the altar." (p.429) For more information please read: "The Celebration of the Mass, A Study of the Rubrics of the Roman Missal" Rev. J.B O'Connell, The Bruce Publishing Co. Milwaukee.1964. This edition has the updated rubrics of 1960.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #230 on: February 08, 2024, 08:37:55 AM »
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  • Dear AnthonyPadua,

    "1. The Pax or kiss of peace is the ceremonial embrace and kiss, in sign of fraternal charity, which is given during solemn Mass to all the clergy present and to those engaged in the service of the altar." (p.429) For more information please read: "The Celebration of the Mass, A Study of the Rubrics of the Roman Missal" Rev. J.B O'Connell, The Bruce Publishing Co. Milwaukee.1964. This edition has the updated rubrics of 1960.
    I don't think I've ever seen it, or maybe I missed it?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #231 on: February 08, 2024, 08:39:05 AM »
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  • Far from having the power to change the Canon of the Mass, the Congregation is supposed to make sure it is "diligently observed." No one, after Trent and Quo Primum, could change the Canon of the Mass.


    Catholic Encyclopedia
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03255c.htm

    Council of Trent Session VII
    http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm

    CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.


    Council of Trent Session XXII
    http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm

    CHAPTER IV:
    On the Canon of the Mass. And whereas it beseemeth, that holy things be administered in a holy manner, and of all holy things this sacrifice is the most holy; to the end that it might be worthily and reverently offered and received, the Catholic Church instituted, many years ago, the sacred Canon, so pure from every error, that nothing is contained therein which does not in the highest degree savour of a certain holiness and piety, and raise up unto God the minds of those that offer. For it is composed, out of the very words of the Lord, the traditions of the apostles, and the pious institutions also of holy pontiffs.

    CANON VI.--If any one saith, that the canon of the mass contains errors, and is therefore to be abrogated; let him be anathema.


    1917 Canon Law

    Canon 253 (NA) Cross-Ref.: 1917 CIC 1999

    § 1. The Congregation for Sacred Rites has authority to see and establish all those things that
    proximately involve the sacred rites and ceremonies of the Latin Church, but not which refer to
    sacred rites in the wide sense, things like the right of precedence and others of this sort, which are
    treated either in the judicial order or in the disciplinary line.
    § 2. It is for it especially to be vigilant that the sacred rites and ceremonies are diligently
    observed in celebrating the Sacred [Synax], in the administration of Sacraments, in conducting
    divine offices, and in all those things that respect cult in the Latin Church; [it can] grant opportune
    dispensations; it can give out insignia and privileges of honor whether personal or for a time,
    whether to places or perpetually, in matters affecting sacred rites and ceremonies, and shall take
    care lest these fall into abuse.
    § 3. Finally all those things that pertain to the beatification and canonization of the Servants of
    God or to sacred relics in any way are referred to it.

    For cryin' out loud Angelus just read closer and not read looking to see if it's capable of supporting what you want it to say.

    For example, look at this canon:


    Quote
    CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

    According to that, no pope could make any change in any rite used in administration of the sacraments - rites (plural), sacraments (plural). That would forbid Pius XII, for example, in making any changes in the rite regarding the sacrament of ordination. Your reading is nonsense. As Pius XII himself said:


    Quote
    It follows that, even according to the mind of the Council of Florence itself, the traditio instrumentorum is not required for the substance and validity of this Sacrament by the will of Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. If it was at one time necessary even for validity by the will and command of the Church, every one knows that the Church has the power to change and abrogate what she herself has established.


    (Pope Pius XII, Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis, n. 3)

    Quoted here - Did the Council of Florence Teach Error? A Response to Athanasius Schneider’s Attempt to Save Vatican II – Novus Ordo Watch

    The proscription against changing is directed at rogue priests and perhaps bishops who change sacramental rites at their own discretion and without approval of the authority authorized to make changes - which is Rome, or the pope, sometimes the local ordinary with delegated authority.

    Pius XII made this clear in Mediator Dei. The proscriptions of change relate to lesser authorities that act without approval of the competent authorities and wreak havoc and inconsistencies with regard to administration of the holy sacraments:


    Quote
    50. The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circuмstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized. This will explain the marvelous variety of Eastern and Western rites. Here is the reason for the gradual addition, through successive development, of particular religious customs and practices of piety only faintly discernible in earlier times. Hence likewise it happens from time to time that certain devotions long since forgotten are revived and practiced anew. All these developments attest the abiding life of the immaculate Spouse of Jesus Christ through these many centuries. They are the sacred language she uses, as the ages run their course, to profess to her divine Spouse her own faith along with that of the nations committed to her charge, and her own unfailing love. They furnish proof, besides, of the wisdom of the teaching method she employs to arouse and nourish constantly the "Christian instinct."


    51. Several causes, really have been instrumental in the progress and development of the sacred liturgy during the long and glorious life of the Church.

    52. Thus, for example, as Catholic doctrine on the Incarnate Word of God, the eucharistic sacrament and sacrifice, and Mary the Virgin Mother of God came to be determined with greater certitude and clarity, new ritual forms were introduced through which the acts of the liturgy proceeded to reproduce this brighter light issuing from the decrees of the teaching authority of the Church, and to reflect it, in a sense so that it might reach the minds and hearts of Christ's people more readily.

    53. The subsequent advances in ecclesiastical discipline for the administering of the sacraments, that of penance for example; the institution and later suppression of the catechumenate; and again, the practice of eucharistic communion under a single species, adopted in the Latin Church; these developments were assuredly responsible in no little measure for the modification of the ancient ritual in the course of time, and for the gradual introduction of new rites considered more in accord with prevailing discipline in these matters.

    54. Just as notable a contribution to this progressive transformation was made by devotional trends and practices not directly related to the sacred liturgy, which began to appear, by God's wonderful design, in later periods, and grew to be so popular. We may instance the spread and ever mounting ardor of devotion to the Blessed Eucharist, devotion to the most bitter passion of our Redeemer, devotion to the most Sacred Heart of Jesus, to the Virgin Mother of God and to her most chaste spouse.

    55. Other manifestations of piety have also played their circuмstantial part in this same liturgical development. Among them may be cited the public pilgrimages to the tombs of the martyrs prompted by motives of devotion, the special periods of fasting instituted for the same reason, and lastly, in this gracious city of Rome, the penitential recitation of the litanies during the "station" processions, in which even the Sovereign Pontiff frequently joined.

    56. It is likewise easy to understand that the progress of the fine arts, those of architecture, painting and music above all, has exerted considerable influence on the choice and disposition of the various external features of the sacred liturgy.

    57. The Church has further used her right of control over liturgical observance to protect the purity of divine worship against abuse from dangerous and imprudent innovations introduced by private individuals and particular churches. Thus it came about - during the 16th century, when usages and customs of this sort had become increasingly prevalent and exaggerated, and when private initiative in matters liturgical threatened to compromise the integrity of faith and devotion, to the great advantage of heretics and further spread of their errors - that in the year 1588, Our predecessor Sixtus V of immortal memory established the Sacred Congregation of Rites, charged with the defense of the legitimate rites of the Church and with the prohibition of any spurious innovation.[48] This body fulfills even today the official function of supervision and legislation with regard to all matters touching the sacred liturgy.[49]

    58. It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.[50] Bishops, for their part, have the right and duty carefully to watch over the exact observance of the prescriptions of the sacred canons respecting divine worship.[51] Private individuals, therefore, even though they be clerics, may not be left to decide for themselves in these holy and venerable matters, involving as they do the religious life of Christian society along with the exercise of the priesthood of Jesus Christ and worship of God; concerned as they are with the honor due to the Blessed Trinity, the Word Incarnate and His august mother and the other saints, and with the salvation of souls as well. For the same reason no private person has any authority to regulate external practices of this kind, which are intimately bound up with Church discipline and with the order, unity and concord of the Mystical Body and frequently even with the integrity of Catholic faith itself.

    Again, with all your other highlights of Magisterial texts, you stretch them to the point of abuse to read into them what you want. None of those texts say the competent authority of the Church, the holy father the pope, can't change the Canon or any other rites of the Roman Church in reference to the administration of the sacraments other than those, by divine law and the Lord Himself, aspects (the Form) which have been determined in specie, e.g., the words of the consecration of the precious body and blood in the Eucharist.

    You highlight "the Sacred Canon, pure from any error." Right. The TLM canon is pure and free from error. That doesn't say the pope can't change in the prayers of the Canon or any parts of a sacramental rite "
    what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circuмstances, times, and places." Council of Trent, Session XXI, Chapter 2.

    You highlight, " especially to be vigilant that the sacred rites and ceremonies are diligently observed," and " in matters affecting sacred rites and ceremonies, and shall take
    care lest these fall into abuse." Of course. We are talking about the sacraments, and diligence and care should be taken as to their administration lest, again, their administration otherwise falls into havoc and inconsistencies and even conflict by private and peculiar use by priests, etc. - but, AGAIN, that language doesn't bear the weight you want to lay on it. It doesn't mean the pope or the Church, the proper authority, can't make changes to the sacramental rites as it sees fit.

    It's as if you read these things until you find something that you think can support your argument, and then you stretch the text around your argument.

    Sorry . . . your rubber bands are broken.



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #232 on: February 10, 2024, 10:33:09 AM »
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  • For cryin' out loud Angelus just read closer and not read looking to see if it's capable of supporting what you want it to say.

    For example, look at this canon:


    According to that, no pope could make any change in any rite used in administration of the sacraments - rites (plural), sacraments (plural). That would forbid Pius XII, for example, in making any changes in the rite regarding the sacrament of ordination. Your reading is nonsense. As Pius XII himself said:


    The proscription against changing is directed at rogue priests and perhaps bishops who change sacramental rites at their own discretion and without approval of the authority authorized to make changes - which is Rome, or the pope, sometimes the local ordinary with delegated authority.

    Pius XII made this clear in Mediator Dei. The proscriptions of change relate to lesser authorities that act without approval of the competent authorities and wreak havoc and inconsistencies with regard to administration of the holy sacraments:


    Again, with all your other highlights of Magisterial texts, you stretch them to the point of abuse to read into them what you want. None of those texts say the competent authority of the Church, the holy father the pope, can't change the Canon or any other rites of the Roman Church in reference to the administration of the sacraments other than those, by divine law and the Lord Himself, aspects (the Form) which have been determined in specie, e.g., the words of the consecration of the precious body and blood in the Eucharist.

    You highlight "the Sacred Canon, pure from any error." Right. The TLM canon is pure and free from error. That doesn't say the pope can't change in the prayers of the Canon or any parts of a sacramental rite "
    what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circuмstances, times, and places." Council of Trent, Session XXI, Chapter 2.

    You highlight, " especially to be vigilant that the sacred rites and ceremonies are diligently observed," and " in matters affecting sacred rites and ceremonies, and shall take
    care lest these fall into abuse." Of course. We are talking about the sacraments, and diligence and care should be taken as to their administration lest, again, their administration otherwise falls into havoc and inconsistencies and even conflict by private and peculiar use by priests, etc. - but, AGAIN, that language doesn't bear the weight you want to lay on it. It doesn't mean the pope or the Church, the proper authority, can't make changes to the sacramental rites as it sees fit.

    It's as if you read these things until you find something that you think can support your argument, and then you stretch the text around your argument.

    Sorry . . . your rubber bands are broken.



    Dear DecemRationis,

    You are right that Canon 13 of the VII-th Session of Trent forbids any changes to the rites of Sacraments. Pope Pius XII did not introduce any changes to the Sacrament of Order; he just defined the text necessary for the validity of the Roman Rite of ordination to diaconate, priesthood, and episcopacy. He also established that it is the imposition of hands of a bishop that is the matter of the Sacrament of Order. Confirming Trent and the teaching of his predecessors, he ordered that the whole rite be scrupulously adhered to; nothing omitted or added.

     The reference to the possibility of the Church to abrogate or change what She established refers to the previously held position that the matter of the Sacrament of Order is the "Traditio Instrumentorum" as expounded by "Decretum pro Armenis". The "Traditio Instrumentorum" is still kept in the Roman Rite. By the way, Canon 13 of the Seventh Session binds the popes also, not only the bishops and priests. Be careful with translations of the word, "quemcuмque".  It means whosoever; not every, or any.