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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 17724 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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  • Stubborn, I'm still waiting for you to address this quote:
    Quote
    The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

    Agree or disagree?  Was +Lefebvre right or wrong?

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • "I have always warned the faithful vis-à -vis the sedevacantists, for example. There, also, people say: “The Mass is fine, so we go to it.” Yes, there is the Mass. That’s fine, but there is also the sermon; there is the atmosphere, the conversations, contacts before and after, which make you little by little, change your ideas. It is therefore a danger and that’s why in general, I think it constitutes part of a whole. One does not merely go to Mass, one frequents a milieu.” Archbishop Lefebvre, Fideliter No. 79, January/February 1991
    Here is that part of the interview per the drbo website:

    * Last Interview with Archbishop Lefebvre (drbo.org)

    Fideliter
    Some of the faithful are tempted to keep good relations with those who have rallied, or even attend the Mass or ceremonies that they celebrate, do you think that there is a danger in that?

    Lefebvre
    I have always warned the faithful, the sedevacantists, for example. There also people say: “The Mass is fine, so we go to it.”
    Yes, there is the Mass. That’s fine, but there is also the sermon; there is the atmosphere, the conversations, contacts before and after, which make you little by little change your ideas. It is therefore a danger and that’s why in general, I think it constitutes part of a whole. One does not merely go to Mass, one frequents a milieu.
    There are obviously some people who are attracted by the beautiful ceremonies, who also go to Fontgombault, where they have taken up the old mass again. They are in a climate of ambiguity which to my mind is dangerous. Once one finds oneself in this atmosphere, submitted to the Vatican, subject ultimately to the Council, one ends up by becoming ecuмenical.


    When one looks at the previous questions in the interview and the rest of ABL's answer to the immediate question, it is clear that ABL is talking about the mass of FSSP/the indults, NOT the mass of the sedevacantists. 

    In fact, the "vis-a-vis" in Stubborn's quote is NOT in the link.  In fact, with the original punctuation and without that phrase, ABL includes the sedevacantists as part of the "faithful".


    Offline Centroamerica

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  • So, Stubborn, what do you say of this quote from +Lefebvre?
    +Lefebvre hereby affirms Vatican II ecclesiology and promotes Rahner's "Anonymous Christian" theology.  After all, he did sign all the docuмents of Vatican II.

    Fr. Deivid Nass of the Brazilian Resistance and Holy Cross monastery told me maybe ten years ago or so that Archbishop Lefebvre did not actually write that book. Someone else wrote the book and +Lefebvre put his name on it. I would bet that that is the common thought in other parts of the world of Tradition like France. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Stubborn

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  • He didn't "condemn" anything.  Can you read English?  He said he warned against attending SV chapels, for unspecified reasons.  He said in other quotes at the time that he had adopted a benefit-of-the-doubt stance, where he acted as if they were popes ... unless he couldn't do so.
    Nope.

    He clearly says "“I have always warned the faithful vis-à -vis the sedevacantists."
    (vis-à -vis is defined as: in relation to; with regard to.)

    How is it that you are able to say that he didn't condemn anything? Because there's more to sedeism than a vacant chair?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Centroamerica

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  • So, Stubborn, what do you say of this quote from +Lefebvre?
    +Lefebvre hereby affirms Vatican II ecclesiology and promotes Rahner's "Anonymous Christian" theology.  After all, he did sign all the docuмents of Vatican II.

    There was a huge debate on controversy regarding Archbishop Lefebvre having signed all the docuмents of Vatican 2. Archbishop Lefebvre said himself that he did not sign all the docuмents, but it was later proven that he in fact did. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Stubborn

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  • Stubborn, I'm still waiting for you to address this quote:
    Agree or disagree?  Was +Lefebvre right or wrong?
    He was wrong.

    But to claim repeatedly that he considered sedeism to be in some way valid, is a lie. Especially in light of the interview only a month or two before he died where he warned against it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nadir

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  • I have never heard of any miracles performed during his life.  Or maybe you experienced and apparition and was told he is in Heaven?
    These are NOT necessary qualifications for sainthood.  Never have been. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Stubborn

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  • When one looks at the previous questions in the interview and the rest of ABL's answer to the immediate question, it is clear that ABL is talking about the mass of FSSP/the indults, NOT the mass of the sedevacantists. 

    In fact, the "vis-a-vis" in Stubborn's quote is NOT in the link.  In fact, with the original punctuation and without that phrase, ABL includes the sedevacantists as part of the "faithful".
    This is the snip from the original, which translates as I posted:

    Monseigneur – J’ai toujours mis en garde les fidèles par exemple vis-à-vis des sédévacantistes. Ils disent aussi : la messe est bien, nous y allons.

    Oui, il y a la messe. Elle est bien, mais il y a aussi le sermon ; il y a l’ambiance, les conversations, les contacts avant et après, qui font que tout doucement on change d’idées. C’est donc un danger et c’est pourquoi d’une manière générale j’estime que cela fait un tout. On ne va pas seulement à la messe, on fréquente un milieu.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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  • These are NOT necessary qualifications for sainthood.  Never have been.

    No verified miracles are required for beatification and sainthood?  Time to dispense with the Devil's Advocate, I guess.

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • This is the snip from the original, which translates as I posted:

    Monseigneur – J’ai toujours mis en garde les fidèles par exemple vis-à-vis des sédévacantistes. Ils disent aussi : la messe est bien, nous y allons.

    Oui, il y a la messe. Elle est bien, mais il y a aussi le sermon ; il y a l’ambiance, les conversations, les contacts avant et après, qui font que tout doucement on change d’idées. C’est donc un danger et c’est pourquoi d’une manière générale j’estime que cela fait un tout. On ne va pas seulement à la messe, on fréquente un milieu.
    And yet right after that he says this:

    Obviously, there are people who are attracted by the beautiful ceremonies who also go to Fontgombault, where the old mass has been revived. They find themselves in a climate of ambiguity that I think is dangerous. As soon as one finds oneself in this atmosphere, subject to the Vatican, ultimately subject to the Council, one ends up becoming ecuмenist.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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  • And yet right after that he says this:

    Obviously, there are people who are attracted by the beautiful ceremonies who also go to Fontgombault, where the old mass has been revived. They find themselves in a climate of ambiguity that I think is dangerous. As soon as one finds oneself in this atmosphere, subject to the Vatican, ultimately subject to the Council, one ends up becoming ecuмenist.
    Proving what exactly vis-a-vis the sedevacantists?


    Offline 2Vermont

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  • Proving what exactly vis-a-vis the sedevacantists?
    I'm questioning the translation because it seems his main point is not about the sedevacantists, but about those who have the Mass, but are connected with Rome.  That is what most of the interview is about.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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  • I'm questioning the translation because it seems his main point is not about the sedevacantists, but about those who have the Mass, but are connected with Rome.  That is what most of the interview is about.
    So, what alternative meaning do you propose for the first sentence besides warning the faithful about attending sedevacantist Masses?

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • So, what alternative meaning do you propose for the first sentence besides warning the faithful about attending sedevacantist Masses?
    I don't know.  Maybe I'm wrong.  It just seems out of place given the gist of the whole interview.  It's the only time sedevacantists are mentioned.  Something is off to me.

    Offline Nadir

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  • No verified miracles are required for beatification and sainthood?  Time to dispense with the Devil's Advocate, I guess.
    Verified miracles ARE required. That is not what you said.

    You said that there were no miracles in his lifetime. Miracles in his lifetime are not necessary qualification for sainthood. Many canonised saints did not perform miracles in their lifetime. Saints are judged by various criteria, e.g. humility, holiness, heroic work for the Kingdom etc. etc.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024