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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 13288 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2024, 01:39:47 PM »
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    • Quote
    “I have always warned the faithful vis-à -vis the sedevacantists, for example. There, also, people say: “The Mass is fine, so we go to it.” Yes, there is the Mass. That’s fine, but there is also the sermon; there is the atmosphere, the conversations, contacts before and after, which make you little by little, change your ideas. It is therefore a danger and that’s why in general, I think it constitutes part of a whole. One does not merely go to Mass, one frequents a milieu.” Archbishop Lefebvre, Fideliter No. 79, January/February 1991

    Note what he says, he says: "I have always warned..."

    He does not say: "I sometimes think it is ok," or "I sometimes sympathize with it or lean towards," no, he says he has *always* warned against sedeism. 

    He then goes on to reveal *why* he always warned against it...

    Because sedeism, he says, is "a danger." Imagine that.

    Here we are almost 33 years after his death, and SOMEHOW his "always warned" has done a complete  metamorphosis by changing into sedes being his only true followers. That deserves one giant :facepalm:
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #31 on: January 15, 2024, 02:01:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on January 15, 2024, 12:39:22 PM
    I have never heard of any miracles performed during his life.  Or maybe you experienced and apparition and was told he is in Heaven?

    I know heroic virtue when I see it or read about it.
    How many pre-Vatican II Catholic books have YOU read?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #32 on: January 15, 2024, 02:02:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 15, 2024, 01:39:47 PM
    ... he says he has *always* warned against sedeism.

    That's an abject lie, and it's been exposed myriad times.  But you keep grasping for straws to justify your heresies.

    One quote translates to "always" only if you filter out the dozens of quotes where he says that he might have to become a sedevacantist, where he holds that sedevacantism is possible, or says that he doesn't say that one can't say he's not the pope, etc.

    Nor is he actually warning against sedevacantism, but against attending sedevacantist chapels, for reasons he doesn't elaborate ... could be his perception that they have bitter zeal, etc.

    I'm still awaiting your refutation of where +Lefebvre states that the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit and protected from damaging the Church the way we have seen.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #33 on: January 15, 2024, 02:10:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 15, 2024, 02:02:28 PM
    That's an abject lie, and it's been exposed myriad times.  But you keep grasping for straws to justify your heresies.

    One quote translates to "always" only if you filter out the dozens of quotes where he says that he might have to become a sedevacantist, where he holds that sedevacantism is possible, or says that he doesn't say that one can't say he's not the pope, etc.
    Start here; Read the last interview ever recorded with Archbishop Lefebvre... Last Interview with Archbishop Lefebvre: What Catholics Believe
    Will take you to https://www.drbo.org/lefebvre.htm
    Will take you to the original

    At least, that's how I found it. So you're the one with the "abject lie, and it's been exposed myriad times.  But you keep grasping for straws to justify your heresies."

    I already refuted that quote you keep posting to justify your heresies - go back and read it.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #34 on: January 15, 2024, 02:10:54 PM »
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    • You can find evidence for "Marcel Lefebvre:  Sedevacantist" and then evidence for "Marcel Lefebvre: Anti-Sedevacantist", just as you can find "Marcel Lefebvre: Resistance" and "Marcel Lefebvre: Neo-SSPX/Fellay".  Every group cherry picks the quotes for what they want to hear and use him as a sock-puppet to broadcast their own opinons.



    https://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #35 on: January 15, 2024, 02:12:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 15, 2024, 02:10:47 PM
    At least, that's how I found it. So you're the one with the "abject lie, and it's been exposed myriad times.  But you keep grasping for straws to justify your heresies."

    Indeed, you are an abject liar and a shameless Old Catholic heretic.  For every anti-SV quote you can find a pro-SV quote, where he says it's possible, he may have to declare SV (after Assisi), that he doesn't forbid it, etc.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #36 on: January 15, 2024, 02:14:59 PM »
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    • So, Stubborn, what do you say of this quote from +Lefebvre?
    Quote
    The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

    +Lefebvre hereby affirms Vatican II ecclesiology and promotes Rahner's "Anonymous Christian" theology.  After all, he did sign all the docuмents of Vatican II.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #37 on: January 15, 2024, 02:20:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on January 15, 2024, 02:01:56 PM
    I know heroic virtue when I see it or read about it.
    How many pre-Vatican II Catholic books have YOU read?

    Matthew, you think I don't read or something?  Do encyclicals count or are they too short?  Very odd, I say...
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #38 on: January 15, 2024, 02:29:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 15, 2024, 02:12:22 PM
    Indeed, you are an abject liar and a shameless Old Catholic heretic.  For every anti-SV quote you can find a pro-SV quote, where he says it's possible, he may have to declare SV (after Assisi), that he doesn't forbid it, etc.
    Ha!
    Imagine that, an Old Catholic heretic calling me an Old Catholic heretic.

    Catholics through all the generations of the Church have always believed that there are two ways for a pope to lose his office, 1) his death or 2) his resignation. This is what I believe. This is Catholic.

    St. Vincent of Lerins says.....
    That the true faith is that which has been held by all the faithful people in the Church, all the time.

    Which is to say that any idea that has not been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic.

    Which is to say that an heretical idea can be shown to have been held by a small group of people within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history.

    Surely you must agree that sedeism is an idea that has been held by a small group of people during a number of generations of history. You keep promoting it as if it is de fide = you are the heretic spreading heresies, not me. You Old Catholic you! 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #39 on: January 15, 2024, 02:40:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 15, 2024, 02:10:54 PM
    You can find evidence for "Marcel Lefebvre:  Sedevacantist" and then evidence for "Marcel Lefebvre: Anti-Sedevacantist", just as you can find "Marcel Lefebvre: Resistance" and "Marcel Lefebvre: Neo-SSPX/Fellay".  Every group cherry picks the quotes for what they want to hear and use him as a sock-puppet to broadcast their own opinons.
    Ya, but the main thing you need to accept is that in the last interview ever recorded with Archbishop Lefebvre, which was only a few months before he died, he condemned sedeism. No one is asking you to accept a lie, or go shoot the neighbor, so why don't you just accept this?

    There's a whole lot more to sedeism than a vacant chair, isn't there?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #40 on: January 15, 2024, 02:45:10 PM »
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    • Poe Leo XIII saw what he saw and heard what he heard at the Tabernacle. Cardinal Manning in his writings knew what was coming. And Cardinal Rampolla,ha! a freemason. The jews made it to the top.  Pius X knew what was to come.  It was a matter of time, an imposter would take the seat. It is prophecy, it will happen. It is obvious, this man who claims to be a pope, is not catholic, and it shows so much!!  What more does one think must be shown!!  

    IMO if Bishop Lefebvre were living today, he would say, what I warned you about and prophecy has warned, is with us. Knights of Satan.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #41 on: January 15, 2024, 02:54:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on January 15, 2024, 02:45:10 PM
    Poe Leo XIII saw what he saw and heard what he heard at the Tabernacle. Cardinal Manning in his writings knew what was coming. And Cardinal Rampolla,ha! a freemason. The jews made it to the top.  Pius X knew what was to come.  It was a matter of time, an imposter would take the seat. It is prophecy, it will happen. It is obvious, this man who claims to be a pope, is not catholic, and it shows so much!!  What more does one think must be shown!! 

    IMO if Bishop Lefebvre were living today, he would say, what I warned you about and prophecy has warned, is with us. Knights of Satan.

    Yep.  With all due respect to +Lefebvre, it's painfully obvious ("morally certain", as +Vigano would say) that these men were/are infiltrators, not just some otherwise-well-meaning-and-sincere-but-confused individuals, but conscious and deliberate destroyers.  Everything has led up to this, much prophecy, Fatima's Third Secret, etc. and the histories of each individual Antipope.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #42 on: January 15, 2024, 02:54:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on January 14, 2024, 11:41:11 PM
    I don't say that Rev Roy or Fr Epiney

    Maybe some here didn’t catch this so I’ll point it out. Plenus Vehementer is not using sloppy addressing etiquete or ignorance here. Plenus deliberately refuses to refer to Bishop Da Silva or the bishops he has consecrated as bishops. It doesn’t seem to be based on any reasoning. He has mentally decided that they are not worthy of the title of bishops, so he has stripped that dignity from them in all his communications, despite the fact that Bishop Williamson acknowledges them as bishops. A telltale sign of pretty frivolousness and division.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #43 on: January 15, 2024, 02:54:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on January 15, 2024, 02:45:10 PM
    It is obvious, this man who claims to be a pope, is not catholic, and it shows so much!!  What more does one think must be shown!! 

    There is nothing more to be shown - as Fr. Chazal and +Vigano both recognize the apostate as being an apostate and/or pertinacious heretic.  Everyone of them is waiting to be told the man in white is not a pope.  Once they've been told then they'll be fine with it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #44 on: January 15, 2024, 02:56:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 15, 2024, 02:40:21 PM
    Ya, but the main thing you need to accept is that in the last interview ever recorded with Archbishop Lefebvre, which was only a few months before he died, he condemned sedeism. No one is asking you to accept a lie, or go shoot the neighbor, so why don't you just accept this?

    There's a whole lot more to sedeism than a vacant chair, isn't there?

    He didn't "condemn" anything.  Can you read English?  He said he warned against attending SV chapels, for unspecified reasons.  He said in other quotes at the time that he had adopted a benefit-of-the-doubt stance, where he acted as if they were popes ... unless he couldn't do so.

    Just as he did on EENS, though, he ended up doing some damage to the Catholic ecclesiology (between this and his "Anonymous Christian" quote above), leaving behind a legacy where many/most of his followers are slouching toward Old Catholicism and religious indifferentism.
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