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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 17948 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2024, 06:37:50 AM »
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    • In fact, +Lefebvre implied that he had privately leaned SV for a long time in his “for twenty years we preferred to wait” comment.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #76 on: January 16, 2024, 06:44:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 16, 2024, 06:37:50 AM
    In fact, +Lefebvre implied that he had privately leaned SV for a long time in his “for twenty years we preferred to wait” comment.
    So he implied that he had privately leaned sede, but said that he always warned against it. Where do you come up with this, from other sedes?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #77 on: January 16, 2024, 07:00:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 16, 2024, 06:44:28 AM
    So he implied that he had privately leaned sede, but said that he always warned against it. Where do you come up with this, from other sedes?

    From his public statements, moron.  So you explain what +Lefebvre meant by “for twenty years we preferred to wait before publicly declaring the See to be vacant”.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #78 on: January 16, 2024, 07:05:38 AM »
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    • Stubborn, I'm still waiting for your assessment of +Lefebvre statements that non-Catholics (even infidels) can be save and can be within the Church without even knowing it.

    I'll answer it for you, because you lack the spine to do so, since it undercuts your use of +Lefebvre as your rule of faith.  You hold that +Lefebvre's statement is erroneous and even objectively heretical, since it directly and verbatim denies EENS dogma.

    But you lack the intellectual honesty and the fortitude to disagree with +Lefebvre, since that blows your entire tactic of using (and abusing) +Lefebvre as a promoter of your ecclesiological heresy.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #79 on: January 16, 2024, 07:22:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 16, 2024, 07:00:12 AM
    From his public statements, moron.  So you explain what +Lefebvre meant by “for twenty years we preferred to wait before publicly declaring the See to be vacant”.
    Simple. He was waiting for the next pope to publicly declare the See to be vacant. It's not complicated.

    Why is it that you refuse to accept what he said in the final interview of his life when he said he always warned against sedeism? You calling him a liar or only me?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #80 on: January 16, 2024, 07:24:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 16, 2024, 07:05:38 AM
    Stubborn, I'm still waiting for your assessment of +Lefebvre statements that non-Catholics (even infidels) can be save and can be within the Church without even knowing it.

    I'll answer it for you, because you lack the spine to do so, since it undercuts your use of +Lefebvre as your rule of faith.  You hold that +Lefebvre's statement is erroneous and even objectively heretical, since it directly and verbatim denies EENS dogma.

    But you lack the intellectual honesty and the fortitude to disagree with +Lefebvre, since that blows your entire tactic of using (and abusing) +Lefebvre as a promoter of your ecclesiological heresy.
    Are you blind?

    I already answered he was wrong - but as per usual, you make this about something altogether different to derail the issue at hand because it goes against the narrative that, for what seems like years, you've been spreading across the forum like the manure that it is.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #81 on: January 16, 2024, 09:21:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 16, 2024, 06:15:19 AM
    I don't have a Facebook account, so I can't view the link.
    Dear 2Vermont, 
    I do not have one either.  I found it through Duckduckgo.  I will try to find another link.  Thank you for letting me know.
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    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #82 on: January 16, 2024, 09:26:04 AM »
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    • All I know is that the leadership of the SSPX would not have the approval of Lefebvre if he were alive today. 

    I personally know SSPX priests who are about to step over the Sede line. Crazy times.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #83 on: January 16, 2024, 09:40:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Everlast22 on January 16, 2024, 09:26:04 AM
    All I know is that the leadership of the SSPX would not have the approval of Lefebvre if he were alive today.

    I personally know SSPX priests who are about to step over the Sede line. Crazy times.

    Not only that, but we're seeing Conciliar priests and FSSP hop straight over the SVism, skipping the usual stopover at R&R.
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #84 on: January 16, 2024, 12:28:29 PM »
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    You missed the point, which was that +Lefebvre distinguished between privately holding the opinion (offering Mass “non una cuм”) and publicly (officially) saying it, which could account for him holding the line in public while privately concluding that the See was vacant.  Avrille have made the same distinction, undoubtedly extending the same attitude of +Lefebvre.
    If +L was privately offering the "non una cuм" when lay Mass hearers assumed he was still doing it "una cuм,"  wouldn't that not have constituted a kind of deceit on the part of +L?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #85 on: January 16, 2024, 12:38:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: hollingsworth on January 16, 2024, 12:28:29 PM
    If +L was privately offering the "non una cuм" when lay Mass hearers assumed he was still doing it "una cuм,"  wouldn't that not have constituted a kind of deceit on the part of +L?

    Well, you know what they say about assumptions.  Same might be said of those priests he told could do the same thing but keep it to themselves.
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    Offline hgodwinson

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #86 on: January 16, 2024, 08:27:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 15, 2024, 02:29:16 PM
    Catholics through all the generations of the Church have always believed that there are two ways for a pope to lose his office, 1) his death or 2) his resignation. This is what I believe. This is Catholic.

    With respect, you are making a strawman here. Even if a Pope cannot lose his Office due to heresy, a Pope losing his office is not the belief of all Sedevacantists. A significant portion believe that the election of Roncalli was invalid. Though, I am sure this is not news to you.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #87 on: January 16, 2024, 08:53:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on January 15, 2024, 08:24:33 PM
    "Former FSSP Superior General Says Lefebvre was a Sedevacantist" (Aug.15, 2020)

     "Fr. Joseph Bisig, co-founder and first superior of the FSSP (until 1988 he was a member of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X and knew Archbishop Levebvre(sic) well) said on November 24, 2018 during a lecture in Ottawa:" (1)

    "Bisig said the unjust suppression of the flourishing seminary, which had 120 seminarians by 1977, and Pope Paul VI's subsequent suspension led to a change in Lefebvre's attitude towards Rome, and his language became increasingly "polemical."  Lefebvre began to entertain sedevacantism, the idea that Paul VI was not the real pope, and thus the Chair of Peter was vacant, Bisig said.  But the archbishop kept this opinion largely out of the public realm because most priests in the SSPX would have been scandalized. Until then it was forbidden for us to be critical of the Holy Father or Rome, Bisig said." (2)
    Excerpt from Archbishop Lefebvre Spiritual Conference at Econe, 1984:

    See, I think that's where our whole problem lies. We live in an exceptional time. We cannot judge everything that is done in the Church according to normal times. We find ourselves in an exceptional situation, it is also necessary to interpret the principles that should govern our ecclesiastical superiors. These principles, we must see them in the minds of those who live today, those principles that were so clear in the past, so simple, that no one was discussing them, that we did not have the opportunity to discuss them, they fail, I would say, in the minds of the Liberals, in the minds, as I explained to you, that have no clarity of vision... It changes the situation. We are in a situation of unbelievable confusion. So let's not draw mathematical conclusions like that, without considering these circuмstances. Because then we make mistakes:
    • Either we endorse the revolution in the Church, and participate in the destruction of the Church, and we leave with the progressives
    • Or we leave the Church completely and find ourselves where? Who with? What with? How would we be linked to the apostles, how connected to the origins of the Church? Gone... and how long is this going to last? So if the last three conclaves should no longer be considered valid, as those in America say who have consecrated their own bishops, and if then there is no longer a Pope, and if there are no more cardinals either.. ? We don't see how we could once more obtain a legitimate pope... No! That's a complete mess!
    So it seems to me that we must stay on this course of common sense, and of the direction which also agrees with the good sense of the faithful, the sense of faith of the faithful, who in 90% of the cases follow the orientations of the Society and would not understand either one or the other.
    They don't want to go over to the progressives and then go to the new Mass and accept all the changes. That, they don't accept at all, saying that if anyone is so inclined, let them go then, but we don't want to. We remain as we are now, we want to keep Tradition. But neither do we want to separate ourselves completely from the Pope, [saying] "There is no longer a pope, there is no longer anything, there is no more authority, we don't know to whom we are attached, there is no more Rome, there is no more Catholic Church". That [solution] doesn’t work either. They are lost too, they feel lost, they are disoriented.

    So they keep this sense of faith, the sense that Providence gives to the good faithful and to today’s good priests, [this sense] to keep the faith, to stay put, to keep their attachment to Rome as well and to remain faithful to the apostolicity, to the visibility of the Church, which are essential things, even if they do not follow the Popes when they favour heresy, as Pope Honorius did. He's been convicted. Those who would have followed Pope Honorius at that time would have been mistaken since he was condemned afterwards.
    So then, I believe that we would be misled in actually following the Popes in what they are doing... but they will probably also one day be condemned by the ecclesiastical authority.

    I would like to insist on those things. It is difficult, I recognize that this is a truly painful situation, but it is unfortunate to see our confreres acting, I would say, so lightly and certainly those American confreres who have left us with a disloyalty that is inconceivable and beyond imagination: deceiving us right up to the moment of their priesthood, to sign commitments, to promise to remain faithful to the Society, to promise me obedience when I ordain them... and 48 hours later, saying goodbye and then leaving us [saying] “I don't know you anymore!” I think that these priests live in a state of continual mortal sin! It's not possible, you can't renounce your word like that, at that point, for such sacred things as ordination! To steal the ordination in a way, by a continuous lie, by continuous disloyalty, until the last minute, until the very moment of ordination, to say "yes" to the question "do you accept obedience?", and 48 hours later, to leave. It is not possible! In front of God, that's not possible! That's such a lie! God cannot allow things like that and bless such situations! That's not possible!


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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #88 on: January 16, 2024, 09:03:20 PM »
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    • Archbishop Lefebvre Conference to Seminarians, Flavigny, December 1988:

    Personally, I have always seen it as too simple a logic. Reality is not so simple. One cannot accuse anyone of being a formal heretic so easily. That is why I have seen it right to remain on the side of underestimation and to maintain some contact with Rome, to think that there is a successor of Peter in Rome.  A bad successor admittedly, that we must not follow because of his liberal and modernist ideas. But he is there, and in so far as he could convert, as St Thomas Aquinas said, we have the right to oppose the authorities, publicly, when they proclaim and profess errors.
    That is what we are doing. Who knows if the grace of God might ever touch him? I am sometimes being told: “It is utopic! You will never manage to convert him!” I do not hold many illusions, but it is not I who can convert him, it is God. So everything is possible” (Fideliter No. 68, pages 12-13).


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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #89 on: January 16, 2024, 09:35:22 PM »
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    • Archbishop Lefebvre Letter to F&B 28th April, 1983:
    "They think and behave as if there is no Pope, suppressing all prayers for the Pope...
    This radicalism is not the attitude of the Society...
    The Society acts on the assumption that Pope John Paul II is Pope and so prays for him and strives to bring him back to Tradition by praying for him..."


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