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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 13293 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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  • What I'm saying is that there is no way to declare he's a bona fide saint, which is what Matthew said - 'he's a great SAINT'.  I'm not saying he was lacking in great virtue(s) or that he wasn't holy or heroic.  If you agree verified miracles are required, then where are the required and verified miracles after his death?

    Offline Texana

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  • Perhaps it was a well-guarded "secret".  ;)
    Dear 2Vermont,
    I think that you are on to something!  Since I did not know anything about Fr. Pierre Epiney, research began.  Please look at this post from fb.  More than one bombshell enclosed:

    https://www.facebook.com/102251001778877/posts/father-pierre-epiney-personal-confessor-and-close-friend-of-archbishop-lefefebvre-/3222113031161...

    Since Fr. Epiney is the source of Bishop Roy's statement, we need to know more about him, don't you agree?


    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • From someone who was there at the consecrations, I was told +de Castro Mayer didn't say that. It was more like "Peter, where art thou?". For me that sounds more like a lamentation for the state of the Church than outright concluding sedeism.
    Very well put, trento. Young Fr Thomas Aquinas (now Bishop) OSB, fellow Portuguese, accompanied Bishop de Castro Mayer to the Episcopal Consecrations. He has very clearly refuted this notion that Bishop de Castro Mayer was sedevacantist. 

    Offline hollingsworth

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  • Quote
    Generally, however, I see individuals attempting to use +Lefebvre as a sock-puppet for their own opinion, cherry-picking whatever quotes they feel serve that purpose while ignoring the ones that don't.
    I agree.  But this interview with Bp. Roy may be a break from "generally."  Bp. Roy seems very sincere and honest.  We've all heard the sedevacantist charges made against a ++Lefebvre in the past.  But this has the ring of truth.  I'm prepared to believe it, i.e. that the Abp. was not including JP2 in his Masses before he died.

    Offline Nadir

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  • What I'm saying is that there is no way to declare he's a bona fide saint, which is what Matthew said - 'he's a great SAINT'.  I'm not saying he was lacking in great virtue(s) or that he wasn't holy or heroic.  If you agree verified miracles are required, then where are the required and verified miracles after his death?

    "After his death" is an indeterminate period. As far as I know there has been no cause commenced to investigate his qualifications for sainthood. And who would be so unwise to do so in the present time? It would be a futile exercise. But Matthew is entitled to call him "a great saint". Ever heard of hyperbole?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • Perhaps it was a well-guarded "secret".  ;)
    Psst! (Archbishop Lefebvre to Fr Epiney) Pssst! Hey Abbe! Can you keep a secret? I have something to tell you. I never say una cuм. Funny, hey, after that conference I gave to the sisters at St Michel en Brenne. https://dominicansavrille.us/archbishop-lefebvre-sedevacantists/ Yeh, they really fell for it. Well how can I say una cuм when the so called Pope is a public manifest heretic? Don't tell Bergy (Fr Schmidberger) and the bishops, they would take it hard. By the way, have you got a spare room here, just in case?

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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  • "After his death" is an indeterminate period. As far as I know there has been no cause commenced to investigate his qualifications for sainthood. And who would be so unwise to do so in the present time? It would be a futile exercise. But Matthew is entitled to call him "a great saint". Ever heard of hyperbole?
     
    Ever heard of comedy?  Of course he's entitled call him 'a great saint' and to use hyperbole.  But between you, me, and everyone else involved here, Matthew actually believes he's a saint and isn't using hyperbole.  This is evidenced by his bold and capitalized font, for emphasis, in addition to his using +Lefebvre as the measuring stick for all things post-Conciliar.  Apparently, I'm not allowed to apply the actual measuring stick used by the Church to determine he is indeed a saint (required and verified miracles)?  I'm not here to argue but give me a break. 

    Church requirements and verification needed? 

    Nein!!  Achtung, Achtung !!  Das ist Verboten!!

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Psst! (Archbishop Lefebvre to Fr Epiney) Pssst! Hey Abbe! Can you keep a secret? I have something to tell you. I never say una cuм. Funny, hey, after that conference I gave to the sisters at St Michel en Brenne. https://dominicansavrille.us/archbishop-lefebvre-sedevacantists/ Yeh, they really fell for it. Well how can I say una cuм when the so called Pope is a public manifest heretic? Don't tell Bergy (Fr Schmidberger) and the bishops, they would take it hard. By the way, have you got a spare room here, just in case?

    That's a silly caricature.  Archbishop Lefebvre early on, at the time of the Nine incident, told them that they didn't have to insert Wojtyla into the Canon but should keep their SV views to themselves, so this dichotomy between doing something privately vs. publicly announcing it has been there for some time, and perhaps he would have been doing the same thing.  He could have just mentioned it to Father Epiney without the "Pssst!" nonsense, but then publicly continued acting as if he were the pope.

    Quote
    “You know, for some time, many people, the sedevacantists, have been saying, ‘there is no more pope’. But I think that for me it was not yet the time to say that, because it was not sure, it was not evident…” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)
    ...
    “I don’t know if the time has come to say that the pope is a heretic (…) Perhaps after this famous meeting of Assisi, perhaps we must say that the pope is a heretic, is apostate. Now I don’t wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a pope to be formally and publicly heretical. (…) So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    Here again we see the distinction between privately believing it and saying it "formally and solemnly".


    Offline Texana

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  • "Former FSSP Superior General Says Lefebvre was a Sedevacantist" (Aug.15, 2020) 

     "Fr. Joseph Bisig, co-founder and first superior of the FSSP (until 1988 he was a member of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X and knew Archbishop Levebvre(sic) well) said on November 24, 2018 during a lecture in Ottawa:" (1)

    "Bisig said the unjust suppression of the flourishing seminary, which had 120 seminarians by 1977, and Pope Paul VI's subsequent suspension led to a change in Lefebvre's attitude towards Rome, and his language became increasingly "polemical."  Lefebvre began to entertain sedevacantism, the idea that Paul VI was not the real pope, and thus the Chair of Peter was vacant, Bisig said.  But the archbishop kept this opinion largely out of the public realm because most priests in the SSPX would have been scandalized.  Until then it was forbidden for us to be critical of the Holy Father or Rome, Bisig said." (2)

    (1)  https://gloria.tv/post/HoWwTFWNzode4R4Ut1MBcfpCR  Posted "W obronie Tradycji Kosciola"

    (2)  "Traditional Priestly Fraternity of St Peter stresses unity with Pope Francis" by Deborah Gyapong, Canadian Catholic News, Nov. 30, 2018
    https://www.catholicregister.org/item/28530-traditional-priestly-fraternity-of-st-peter-stresses-unity-with-pope-francis

    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • That's a silly caricature.  Archbishop Lefebvre early on, at the time of the Nine incident, told them that they didn't have to insert Wojtyla into the Canon but should keep their SV views to themselves, so this dichotomy between doing something privately vs. publicly announcing it has been there for some time, and perhaps he would have been doing the same thing.  He could have just mentioned it to Father Epiney without the "Pssst!" nonsense, but then publicly continued acting as if he were the pope.

    Here again we see the distinction between privately believing it and saying it "formally and solemnly".
    Archbishop Lefebvre tolerated this attitude of these recalcitrant priests, provided they would agree not to be public about it, yet they did not keep their word, as the Archbishop told us, leading to the infamous exit of the nine in 1983.

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • Dear 2Vermont,
    I think that you are on to something!  Since I did not know anything about Fr. Pierre Epiney, research began.  Please look at this post from fb.  More than one bombshell enclosed:

    https://www.facebook.com/102251001778877/posts/father-pierre-epiney-personal-confessor-and-close-friend-of-archbishop-lefefebvre-/3222113031161...

    Since Fr. Epiney is the source of Bishop Roy's statement, we need to know more about him, don't you agree?
    I don't have a Facebook account, so I can't view the link.


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • I agree.  But this interview with Bp. Roy may be a break from "generally."  Bp. Roy seems very sincere and honest.  We've all heard the sedevacantist charges made against a ++Lefebvre in the past.  But this has the ring of truth.  I'm prepared to believe it, i.e. that the Abp. was not including JP2 in his Masses before he died.

    Yes, to me it would be a huge stretch to say that Bishop Roy or Fr. Epiney would lie.  Worst case, perhaps Fr. Epiney misunderstood something +Lefebvre told him.

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • I agree.  But this interview with Bp. Roy may be a break from "generally."  Bp. Roy seems very sincere and honest.  We've all heard the sedevacantist charges made against a ++Lefebvre in the past.  But this has the ring of truth.  I'm prepared to believe it, i.e. that the Abp. was not including JP2 in his Masses before he died.
    I think it is possible.  However, being privately non una-cuм is not the same thing as being publicly anti-una-cuм.  I suspect that there are many non-sede priests who do this, especially with the latest papal fraud.  

    Given Fr Epiney was his confessor, he may have had some heart-to-heart discussions outside of confession that Fr knew was to remain between the two of them....and kept it that way.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Archbishop Lefebvre tolerated this attitude of these recalcitrant priests, provided they would agree not to be public about it, yet they did not keep their word, as the Archbishop told us, leading to the infamous exit of the nine in 1983.

    You missed the point, which was that +Lefebvre distinguished between privately holding the opinion (offering Mass “non una cuм”) and publicly (officially) saying it, which could account for him holding the line in public while privately concluding that the See was vacant.  Avrille have made the same distinction, undoubtedly extending the same attitude of +Lefebvre.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • I think it is possible.  However, being privately non una-cuм is not the same thing as being publicly anti-una-cuм.  I suspect that there are many non-sede priests who do this, especially with the latest papal fraud. 

    Given Fr Epiney was his confessor, he may have had some heart-to-heart discussions outside of confession that Fr knew was to remain between the two of them....and kept it that way.

    Father Cekada has stated that some SSPX priests were privately SV and says that +Lefebvre always tolerated that.