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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 23634 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #220 on: January 23, 2024, 10:53:14 AM »
John XXIII's command issued in the decree Novis hisce temporibus can be found in the AAS:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docuмents/AAS-54-1962-ocr.pdf

See page 873  'De S. Ioseph nomine Canoni Missae inserendo'

This was not a "command" of John XXIII. It was a decree from the Prefect of a curial congregation. Those are legally very different things. A legal change to the Canon of the Mass is not a small thing that one can sneak in with an obscure note that does not include the signature of the Pope himself.

I translated the "decree" and provided the scan from the AAS as an attachment to the following post:

https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/red-alert!-are-the-sedevacantists-the-only-true-followers-of-abp-lefebvre/msg923811/#msg923811

The key section is at the end (read carefully):

Quote
For this reason, this Sacred Congregation of Rites, following the will of the Supreme Pontiff, decides as follows below: Action after the words: "Communicating...our Lord Jesus Christ..." these will be added: "...but also blessed Joseph of the Spouse of the same Virgin..." and then continue: "...and of your blessed apostles and martyrs."

The S. Congregation itself has also determined that this prescription should also be observed on the days where the special form of "Communicating" is prescribed in the Missal.

That means that the Cardinals on the Sacred Congregation made the decision announced. Not the Pope. The Cardinals do not have the authority to change the Canon of the Mass.

P.S. This same game was played by the freemasons allies of Bugnini starting with certain changes to Holy Week all the way through to the Novus Ordo and the new Sacraments. A small (possibly temporary) change was authorized by a Pope. Then that small change was further interpreted by the Curia into a huge change. The freemasons running the Curial Congregation made it look like (through a deception) that the change was canonically-promulgated by the proper authority, when it actually was not.

Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #221 on: January 23, 2024, 11:24:46 AM »
Does the SSPX say St Joseph and does that make the mass invalid?

I have no idea what they say and I am not really interested in what they say (currently).


Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #222 on: January 23, 2024, 11:40:12 AM »
This was not a "command" of John XXIII. It was a decree from the Prefect of a curial congregation. Those are legally very different things. A legal change to the Canon of the Mass is not a small thing that one can sneak in with an obscure note that does not include the signature of the Pope himself.

I translated the "decree" and provided the scan from the AAS as an attachment to the following post:

https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/red-alert!-are-the-sedevacantists-the-only-true-followers-of-abp-lefebvre/msg923811/#msg923811

The key section is at the end (read carefully):


That means that the Cardinals on the Sacred Congregation made the decision announced. Not the Pope. The Cardinals do not have the authority to change the Canon of the Mass.
Dear Angelus, 
The Decree clearly states that the Commission was following the will of the Supreme Pontiff. Said Supreme Pontiff was alive for seventh months after that docuмent was published. Unless he was incapacitated, he approved it, even if tacitly. His successor did not only not correct it; but he went even further into the curse by changing all of the rites of Sacraments.

Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #223 on: January 23, 2024, 11:58:34 AM »
This was not a "command" of John XXIII. It was a decree from the Prefect of a curial congregation. Those are legally very different things. A legal change to the Canon of the Mass is not a small thing that one can sneak in with an obscure note that does not include the signature of the Pope himself.

I translated the "decree" and provided the scan from the AAS as an attachment to the following post:

https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/red-alert!-are-the-sedevacantists-the-only-true-followers-of-abp-lefebvre/msg923811/#msg923811

The key section is at the end (read carefully):

That means that the Cardinals on the Sacred Congregation made the decision announced. Not the Pope. The Cardinals do not have the authority to change the Canon of the Mass.

P.S. This same game was played by the freemasons allies of Bugnini starting with certain changes to Holy Week all the way through to the Novus Ordo and the new Sacraments. A small (possibly temporary) change was authorized by a Pope. Then that small change was further interpreted by the Curia into a huge change. The freemasons running the Curial Congregation made it look like (through a deception) that the change was canonically-promulgated by the proper authority, when it actually was not.
Angelus,

My apologies, I had not noticed you had given the reference already in the thread.

However, I do not think one can, ordinarily, just dismiss the decrees of the Roman Congregations.  They act with delegated authority of the Holy See.  Only a relatively small amount of Church Law is promulgated directly by the Pope by Apostolic Constitutions, by motu proprio, Apostolic letter etc.   If something is not directly issued by the Pope can it simply be ignored?

The changes to Holy Week were signed by the Cardinal Prefect of the SCR and its Secretary, not by Pius XII - are they not binding?

For the record if I were in orders I would not name St Joseph in the Canon.

Offline Yeti

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #224 on: January 23, 2024, 01:39:36 PM »
There is a story repeated by some (Dom Hesse included) that when Pope Pius IX was approached by the clergy proposing the insertion of the name of St. Joseph into the Canon, he simply answered: "I am only the pope." While this may be attributed to his humility, the truth is he knew that he could not do it (bound by the Council of Trent), hence the quote.
.

This is typical of the kind of arguments Canon Hesse makes. Dubious facts supporting false principles with bad logic.

The story is questionable to begin with, but if it's true it's pretty obvious that it's a joke, and it doesn't come anywhere near indicating that Pius IX thought he had no power to put St. Joseph's name in the canon. A pope has the power to change the liturgy, and the Council of Trent didn't say otherwise.