Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 14820 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12377
  • Reputation: +7864/-2438
  • Gender: Male
Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2024, 06:50:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    Not caring who the legitimate Roman Pontiff is at any given moment is to effectively deny his importance to the unity of the Church.
    :facepalm:  In the context of the present day crisis, your comments are laughable.  We aren't living in normal times.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1173
    • Reputation: +497/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #151 on: January 19, 2024, 07:21:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nonsense! Until the dawn of modern communication, certain knowledge of the name of a reigning Roman Pontiff rarely existed beyond the duchies and city-states of Italy as well as regal capitals and primatial sees of western Europe. Most bishops and priests would mention the name of the last pope whom they had been told is reigning who was often already dead and succeeded. The operative principle is union with the Office of Peter, then union with the occupant of that office insofar as that can be known.

    You, living in this age of instant communication, are not excused. The fake Pope says that "he likes to believe Hell is empty."  Jesus himself said (Matthew 7:13-14):


    Quote
     13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.
    Intrate per angustam portam : quia lata porta, et spatiosa via est, quae ducit ad perditionem, et multi sunt qui intrant per eam.

     14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
    Quam angusta porta, et arcta via est, quae ducit ad vitam : et pauci sunt qui inveniunt eam!

    To not care that the guy who contradicts Jesus claims to be the Pope is a scandal.


    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1173
    • Reputation: +497/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #152 on: January 19, 2024, 07:25:29 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • :facepalm:  In the context of the present day crisis, your comments are laughable.  We aren't living in normal times.

    No doubt we aren't living "in normal times." We are living in "the end times" discussed in the Apocalypse. And it was in the Apocalypse (3:15-16) where Jesus said:

    Quote
    I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would that thou wert cold or hot. But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

    And that was the exact quote used in the Moral Theology referring to "the sin of carelessness."

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14772
    • Reputation: +6102/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #153 on: January 20, 2024, 05:11:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If Fr. Epiney and Bishop Roy are telling the truth, that means that any priest or Bishop of the SSPX or the Marian Corps (Resistance) should be free to make the decision on "una cuм" according to his conscience and his knowledge of the Crisis.  He should certainly not be expelled from the Society or the Resistance for following their Founder's example!!
    Fr. Epiney and Bishop Roy are *not* telling the truth. Personally I believe they are repeating a lie they think is the truth. IMO, the reason they think it's the truth is because they think nothing of omitting the name of the pope in the Canon of the Mass themselves and have convinced themselves it is actually a sin to do so.

    +ABL certainly understood that per Quo Primum and since Quo Primum, no priest (or bishop or pope) is free to choose which parts of the Roman Liturgy he wants to add or omit in the Canon of the Mass.

    Priests, because they have knowledge of the crisis does not mean their knowledge qualifies them to choose to omit the name of the pope in the canon of the Mass, because the Church teaches that to do so is an act of schism, it is at the very least certainly breaking the Church's Law on the Roman Liturgy. But what they do not grasp is that the Mass not theirs and they are not permitted to change one word of it - period, lex orandi lex credendi.

    +ABL knew he had no right to change a word of it and never did - they don't/can't/won't grasp this. I think by omitting the name of the pope, they changed their lex orandi, which gives them the lex credendi they have now.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6476/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #154 on: January 20, 2024, 05:36:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr. Epiney and Bishop Roy are *not* telling the truth. Personally I believe they are repeating a lie they think is the truth.
    However, it was my understanding that Fr Epiney heard it directly from ABL. Having said that, I'm just not sure what to make of it. 

    I want to retract my earlier posts because I have seen some other quotes post-1988 that would seem to suggest that ABL wouldn't say the mass non una cuм.  However, I don't rule out the possibility that he did it privately but still held it was a position that should remain private. 


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46874
    • Reputation: +27741/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #155 on: January 20, 2024, 08:18:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr. Epiney and Bishop Roy are *not* telling the truth. Personally I believe they are repeating a lie they think is the truth.

    You believe what you want to believe.  Father Epiney seems reliable, and I don't have any reason to believe that Bishop Roy would lie either.  And, given that it's not all that complicated a matter, I don't believe that this was an instance of "telephone game" either.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46874
    • Reputation: +27741/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #156 on: January 20, 2024, 08:22:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I want to retract my earlier posts because I have seen some other quotes post-1988 that would seem to suggest that ABL wouldn't say the mass non una cuм.  However, I don't rule out the possibility that he did it privately but still held it was a position that should remain private.

    It all depends on the timeframe.  Post-1988 entails several years, and perhaps it was just during the last few weeks or even days of his life that +Lefebvre began to omit Wojtyla's name.  Just because +Lefebvre said something in, say, January 1991 doesn't mean that he had changed his mind in March 1991, shortly before he died.  We're not sure if we're talking about a period of months or even days here.

    I don't believe that either Bishop Roy or Father Epiney would lie, nor that this could plausibly be a case of the "telephone" game, since there weren't that many hops involved and it's not a particularly complicated matter.  Now, if Father Epiney had told Father B and Father B told Father C, etc. ... then you might suspect something got mixed up in the process.

    At the end of the day, however, unlike those R&R who hold out +Lefebvre as their rule of faith, I don't really care that much whether he did or he didn't.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12377
    • Reputation: +7864/-2438
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #157 on: January 20, 2024, 10:19:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If a sede priest says mass una cuм, it’s not a mortal sin.  And vice versa.  The whole debate over this prayer is the dumbest, most fabricated, most outlandish nonsense I’ve ever heard.  


    Offline OABrownson1876

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 719
    • Reputation: +590/-27
    • Gender: Male
      • The Orestes Brownson Society
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #158 on: January 20, 2024, 10:30:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If a sede priest says mass una cuм, it’s not a mortal sin.  And vice versa.  The whole debate over this prayer is the dumbest, most fabricated, most outlandish nonsense I’ve ever heard. 
    Amen to that!  I have a feeling some of the people in this thread probably make monthly visits to the local ordinary- a man who most probably hates the Latin Mass, in addition to a man who has covered up multiple crimes in his diocese- and says to him, "My lord bishop, I need to go to the Latin Mass, may I have your permission?  Do you mind if I put up your heretical picture in my church?  I will be sure to mumble your name in the Canon of the Mass as I kneel in the pew."  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Texana

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 511
    • Reputation: +212/-58
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #159 on: January 20, 2024, 10:56:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr. Epiney and Bishop Roy are *not* telling the truth. Personally I believe they are repeating a lie they think is the truth. IMO, the reason they think it's the truth is because they think nothing of omitting the name of the pope in the Canon of the Mass themselves and have convinced themselves it is actually a sin to do so.

    +ABL certainly understood that per Quo Primum and since Quo Primum, no priest (or bishop or pope) is free to choose which parts of the Roman Liturgy he wants to add or omit in the Canon of the Mass.

    Priests, because they have knowledge of the crisis does not mean their knowledge qualifies them to choose to omit the name of the pope in the canon of the Mass, because the Church teaches that to do so is an act of schism, it is at the very least certainly breaking the Church's Law on the Roman Liturgy. But what they do not grasp is that the Mass not theirs and they are not permitted to change one word of it - period, lex orandi lex credendi.

    +ABL knew he had no right to change a word of it and never did - they don't/can't/won't grasp this. I think by omitting the name of the pope, they changed their lex orandi, which gives them the lex credendi they have now.
    Dear Stubborn,

    The names of a pope or a bishop in the Canon of the Mass are just like the feast days of saints; movable (people die, some become new saints).
    Canon XIII of the Seventh Session does not preclude the changes in the liturgy outside of the rites of the sacraments. One does not incur anathema by not putting the name of the pope or the bishop into the provided space. These men even in regular times can be out of Office ( the state of sedevacante). One does, however, incur anathema by putting the name of St. Joseph to an unchangeable Canon of the Mass. Pope John XXIII is under anathema of Trent and the wrath of Sts. Peter and Paul of Quo Primum.

    This is the problem with the 1962 Missal, and Father Ratzinger knew this. That is why he was not only OK with the 1962 liturgy, but in "Summorum Pontificuм" he made sure that the Mass of Pope St. Pius V does not return.
    Abp. Lefebvre imposed the 1962 liturgy on the SSPX. Did he ever say the new Mass? Did he "ordain" (God forbid!) a priest with a new rite of Order?

    By the way, your statement that Fr. Pierre Epiney, who is the primary source of information, is "repeating a lie" is a defamation of a very holy priest, unless you have specific proof to the contrary. Bishop Pierre Roy, ordained by Bp. Williamson and consecrated by Bp. de Silva, who was ordained to the Priesthood by Bishop Williamson in 2017, is a valid Roman Catholic Bishop. We owe him at least the benefit of the doubt that he would not disseminate disinformation.

    Casting doubts on the name, character, and reputation of true priests and bishops carries a heavy burden of proof for a lay Catholic.

    Offline Texana

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 511
    • Reputation: +212/-58
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #160 on: January 20, 2024, 11:42:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Typo correction:  Bishop Rodrigo da Silva


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46874
    • Reputation: +27741/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #161 on: January 20, 2024, 11:54:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If a sede priest says mass una cuм, it’s not a mortal sin.  And vice versa.  The whole debate over this prayer is the dumbest, most fabricated, most outlandish nonsense I’ve ever heard. 

    This isn't about whether it's sinful.  There are a handful of dogmatic non-una-cuм types out there, but most are not.  What's under discussion is the implication that +Lefebvre may have gone sedevacantist before he died.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46874
    • Reputation: +27741/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #162 on: January 20, 2024, 11:59:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • By the way, your statement that Fr. Pierre Epiney, who is the primary source of information, is "repeating a lie" is a defamation of a very holy priest, unless you have specific proof to the contrary. Bishop Pierre Roy, ordained by Bp. Williamson and consecrated by Bp. de Silva, who was ordained to the Priesthood by Bishop Williamson in 2017, is a valid Roman Catholic Bishop. We owe him at least the benefit of the doubt that he would not disseminate disinformation.

    Casting doubts on the name, character, and reputation of true priests and bishops carries a heavy burden of proof for a lay Catholic.

    Probably the only thing you can say that would not be slanderous would be to speculate that something was "misunderstood" by one of the parties involved, i.e. that Fr. Epiney misunderstood or misheard something +Lefebvre told him and/or that Bishop Roy misunderstood or misheard something Fr. Epiney told him.

    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter.  Archbishop Lefebvre passed away going on 33 years ago now, and what he did back then may or may not be what he would do today.  I surmise that, given the phenomenon of Jorge Bergoglio, he would have come out as a sedevacantist, something he said he may have to do if Assisi took place.

    +Lefebvre changed even during his lifetime.  In the early 1980s, he can be quoted as supporting the +Fellay neo-SSPX position, but then later changed, as circuмstances changed.  So if things can change between 1982 and 1986, how much more have they changed from 1991 to 2024?  We have Novus Ordo priests jumping directly from the Conciliar Church to straight sedevacantism, without the usual stopover at R&R ... on account of Jorge.  What would +Lefebvre say about Jorge?  We can only speculate.

    It's like the entire controversy about +Lefebvre signing the V2 docuмents and then for a time saying the Hybrid/Transitional New Mass.  There are big debates about what he did or did not do, or what he did or did not think.  I have the attitude of, "Who cares?"  If he initially did in some way approve of V2 or the Transitional Mass, so what? ... he later changed his mind, which he's entitled to do, especially given the confusion of this Crisis.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12377
    • Reputation: +7864/-2438
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #163 on: January 20, 2024, 12:02:20 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    One does, however, incur anathema by putting the name of St. Joseph to an unchangeable Canon of the Mass. Pope John XXIII is under anathema of Trent and the wrath of Sts. Peter and Paul of Quo Primum.
    You don't know what you're talking about.  The original edition of the 62 missal, the one approved directly by J23 does NOT have the addition of St Joseph.  It was after this missal was approved, that the liturgy was handed off to a commission/committee, and then from 62 to 65, there were constant and repeated updates to the missal, until the 65 missal came out, which was then revised very soon after that. 

    Quote
    This is the problem with the 1962 Missal
    There is nothing wrong with the 62 missal, original edition.  Most clerics knew the addition of St Joseph was done by a committee vs the pope, which is why they had no problems ignoring the St Joseph change.


    Quote
    Casting doubts on the name, character, and reputation of true priests and bishops carries a heavy burden of proof for a lay Catholic.
    No, the burden of proof is on these clerics for making such a statement, nearly 30 years after +ABL is dead.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46874
    • Reputation: +27741/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #164 on: January 20, 2024, 12:08:12 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, the burden of proof is on these clerics for making such a statement, nearly 30 years after +ABL is dead.

    False.  They don't have to prove anything.  What is this, some canonical trial?  Nor does this entail some kind of slander against Archbishop Lefebvre's character (except for those clowns who consider sedevacantism to be inherently evil, and THE evil of our day, worse than anything Jorge is doing).  But accusing them of lying is certainly a slander against these priests.