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Author Topic: Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council  (Read 411 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council
« on: July 25, 2021, 02:57:21 PM »
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    • In his follow-up letter to his recent Motu Proprio, Francis established that Vatican II was "solemnly" declared by the bishops and was guided by the Holy Ghost, as follows:

    via Vatican.va:

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    A recent stage of this dynamic was constituted by Vatican Council II where the Catholic episcopate came together to listen and to discern the path for the Church indicated by the Holy Spirit. To doubt the Council is to doubt the intentions of those very Fathers who exercised their collegial power in a solemn manner cuм Petro et sub Petro in an ecuмenical council, and, in the final analysis, to doubt the Holy Spirit himself who guides the Church.

    I'm having trouble, in light of this pronouncement, plus the clear abrogation of the TLM over time, how we can continue to state we are "one in faith" with a pope who declares Vatican II was led by the Holy Spirit and solemnly declared in union with the bishops? It seems to me that resisting this Pope is no longer an option when he so clearly established his position.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council
    « Reply #1 on: July 25, 2021, 04:51:29 PM »
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    • Yeah but he didn't solemnly declare that Vat 2 was solemnly declared. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council
    « Reply #2 on: July 25, 2021, 05:47:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on July 25, 2021, 04:51:29 PM
    Yeah but he didn't solemnly declare that Vat 2 was solemnly declared.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council
    « Reply #3 on: July 26, 2021, 02:20:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on July 25, 2021, 02:57:21 PM
    In his follow-up letter to his recent Motu Proprio, Francis established that Vatican II was "solemnly" declared by the bishops and was guided by the Holy Ghost, as follows:

    via Vatican.va:

    I'm having trouble, in light of this pronouncement, plus the clear abrogation of the TLM over time, how we can continue to state we are "one in faith" with a pope who declares Vatican II was led by the Holy Spirit and solemnly declared in union with the bishops? It seems to me that resisting this Pope is no longer an option when he so clearly established his position.
    We are not "of one faith" and have not been for quite some time -- but even without any statements that V2 was led by the Third Person of the Trinity.  (The latter is at least a reference to Catholicism.)  Little time does PF spend on proclaiming any version of the faith; it seems he has substituted a third religion for what were two:

    1. Traditional Catholicism, including its unchanged dogma

    2. The carelessly and casually invented Catholicism post-1964, informally coalescing into a modernist movement in alliance with the modernism ("progressivism") in the secular world.  That is the "Catholicism" that amputated 19 previous centuries but became mainstream Conciliar Catholicism.

    3. The "Catholicism" of Francis I:  Leftist, Latin-American-style nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr + a rejection of Catholic theology and a substitution of secular political priorities for Heavenly ones.  It's not even Protestantism; it's an altogether new invention. 
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council
    « Reply #4 on: July 26, 2021, 08:04:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: MMagdala on July 26, 2021, 02:20:38 AM
    We are not "of one faith" and have not been for quite some time -- but even without any statements that V2 was led by the Third Person of the Trinity.  (The latter is at least a reference to Catholicism.)  Little time does PF spend on proclaiming any version of the faith; it seems he has substituted a third religion for what were two:

    1. Traditional Catholicism, including its unchanged dogma

    2. The carelessly and casually invented Catholicism post-1964, informally coalescing into a modernist movement in alliance with the modernism ("progressivism") in the secular world.  That is the "Catholicism" that amputated 19 previous centuries but became mainstream Conciliar Catholicism.

    3. The "Catholicism" of Francis I:  lҽϝƚιsƚ, Latin-American-style nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr + a rejection of Catholic theology and a substitution of secular political priorities for Heavenly ones.  It's not even Protestantism; it's an altogether new invention.
    Oh, so now he's the pope of three churches?
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council
    « Reply #5 on: July 26, 2021, 08:24:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on July 26, 2021, 08:04:38 AM
    Oh, so now he's the pope of three churches?
    You’re just being argumentative (no surprise).
    The rest of us recognize that 2&3 are just different aspects of the same conciliar church.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council
    « Reply #6 on: July 26, 2021, 08:48:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 26, 2021, 08:24:22 AM
    You’re just being argumentative (no surprise).
    The rest of us recognize that 2&3 are just different aspects of the same conciliar church.
    Of course I am, because such an opinion is going to lead to an absurd end. We can't just keep splitting these perceived churches with each consecutive Pope because of his positions that we don't agree with.

    Soon enough we'll have a Francis II as head of not only the Catholic Church, but also the Novus Ordo, Bergoglian church, and then whatever church may emerge from that pope's potential errors. It's ridiculous.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Reconciling Francis on Vatican II and resisting the Council
    « Reply #7 on: July 26, 2021, 06:31:42 PM »
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    • It is the coming of Chapter 12 of Daniel.  The continual sacrifice of the mass will end.
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