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Author Topic: Recognizing legitimacy to Bergoglio has only one final beneficiary: Bergoglio  (Read 9662 times)

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Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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Read the Bible.

That man in Rome preaches a different gospel.  That man worships a pagan goddess which breaks first Commandment.

The others broke the first commandment too with pagan religions and false gods and goddesses accepted beside Jesus. 


Jesus is the only way.  He is the truth. 

May God bless you and keep you


Offline josh987654321

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I believe the Archbishop might be referring to this article:

Why 'universal and peaceful acceptance' doesn't prove Francis is pope - LifeSite (lifesitenews.com)

I haven't read it all yet, but I remember when I first read this argument a few years ago... 

Since when does a 'majority' have any bearing on true/false? It was the mob that called for the Crucifixion of Our Lord. 

Like it says in the conclusion, since the mob has turned on him we can use the same argument against them lol, shows how poor of an argument this 'universal and peaceful acceptance' was to begin with IMO.

God Bless


Offline Ladislaus

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I've said this before here much more succinctly.  Universal Acceptance?  By whom?

If you think Bergoglio is Catholic, then you're no judge of what's Catholic anymore and your consensus means nothing.

Besides that, there's hardly Universal PEACEFUL Acceptance, as these V2 papal claimants have caused nothing but division and strife and turmoil for faithful Catholics.  Whether you "accept" the technicality of his election, we've had a Traditional movement from the very beginning that does not accept him as a "Rule of Faith".  Billot, in articulating the principle states that it's rooted in the notion that Catholics as a whole cannot accept a false rule of faith.  Regardless of which of the "5 Opinions" you follow, and how you want to slice and dice that particular subject, it's quite clear that the Traditional movement has never accepted these men as rules of faith.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Universal Acceptance 
Pretty sure this was a meme that got debunked a long time ago.


Offline Ladislaus

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Universal Acceptance completely disproves Sedevacantism, whether 1958 SVism or Post 2013 "Benevacantist" Sedevacantism. Both these forms of sedevacantism are schismatic, while the 1958 version is also heretical.

Hardly, Siscoe.  UAP, as explained by Billot, is rooted in the notion that the Universal Church cannot accept a false rule of faith.  Of those who adhere to the Conciliar apostasy, only a small percentage believe that the Pope is the rule of faith (since they're Modernist heretics) or even believe that there's any rule of faith whatsoever outside of themselves and their own fancy.  Of those who still have enough Catholic faith left to believe in the Catholic papacy as rule of faith, the vast majority have question/concerns about whether Jorge Bergoglio is even Catholic, putting him squarely into papa dubius territory.  In fact, the very reason there's a Traditional movement is that large numbers of Catholics could not reconcile the Conciliar "Church" as squaring with their sensus Catholicus as being Catholic.  Whether they quibble about the technicalities or legalities surrounding the papa haereticus question is immaterial, since they wouldn't even be arguing about it if there weren't significant number of Catholics at least holding Bergoglio to be highly suspect of heresy.

You nasty sell-out, traitorous apostate, you, constantly deriding true Catholics as schismatics and heretics while carrying water for the Conciliar apostasy.  God will call you into account, and you'll be condemned alongside the apostates themselves when the Church is restored and the true nature of this Crisis has been exposed for all to see.  Recall how the Church has always anathematized not only the heretics but also those who enabled, favored, and failed to condemn them.

Of course, while there are some theologians who have opined in favor of UAP, there's no Magisterial endorsement of said position, and it remains only a theological opinon ... that is actually falsified by the inconvenient fact that we've had several historical scenarios where a rightful pope reigned, was taken into exile, and then a new one was elected in his place and "universally accepted" while the reigning pope had not resigned (in one case where the reigning pope protested the new election).  Unless you subscribe to the heresy that the Church can depose a Pope (outside of ministerially for heresy), those "universal acceptances" were invalid.

In fact, the closest thing we have to the Magisterium weighing in on the matter militates against UA.  Paul IV in cuм ex Apostolatus stated that a heretic Pope would be illegitimate even if he were accepted and given obedience to "by all" ... but that legislation would be moot, meaningless, and laughable, since acceptance and obedience by all would would prove (and according to some convalidate) the legitimacy of the suspect "Pope".

Offline anonymouscatholicus

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Did traditional catholics, namely bishops and priests and then laity at any point accept the new rite, new calendar, conciliar heresies, new saints, and ultimately the so called new faith of these "popes"?

All traditionalists therefore whether they like it or not are explicit or implicit sedevacantists. As the true catholic relationship between them and so called pope is simply not there. Universal acceptance proponents create this democratic reverse monster of a Church where "popular vote" is what's keeping this apostas in position. So no matter what they do, average contracepting Joe next door or apostate "bishop" is saying he is the pope so therefore he is "accepted". What a weak circular argument.

I don't think so. And pope confirmed this in the history showing that universal acceptance is baloney if this man is not pope in the first place..

"Adding that if at any time it will be found that some bishop, even conducting himself as an archbishop or patriarch or already mentioned cardinal of the Roman Church, even, as shown, a legate, or even a Roman Pontiff, before his promotion or assumption as cardinal or as Roman Pontiff had deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, before his promotion or assumption as Cardinal or as Roman Pontiff, that promotion or assumption concerning him, even if made in concord and from the unanimous assent of all the cardinals, is null, void and worthless;" (cuм EX APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO
Promulgated February 15, 1559 by POPE PAUL IV).

Rooted in this, theologians explain this as a legitimate and valid situation:

Theologian Doyle explains: "The Church is a visible society with a visible Ruler. If there can be any doubt about who that visible Ruler is, he is not visible, and hence, where there is any doubt about whether a person has been legitimately elected Pope, that doubt must be removed before he can become the visible head of Christ’s Church. Blessed Bellarmine, S.J., says: ‘A doubtful Pope must be considered as not Pope’; and Suarez, S.J., says: ‘At the time of the Council of Constance there were three men claiming to be Pope…. Hence, it could have been that not one of them was the true Pope, and in that case, there was no Pope at all…." (See The Defense of the Catholic Church, [1927], pg. 124) It is therefore possible that the entire membership of the Church could have accepted one of those men who was not pope, as the Vicar of Christ."


 


Offline Meg

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I can't remember if it was Cajetan or St. John of the Cross who wrote that sedevacantists should not be considered as schismatic if they would be willing to accept a Pope that was not suspect; in other words, a good Pope. 

I don't think that +ABL ever thought of sedevacantists as schismatic, but then he knew that there were serious issues and problems with the post-conciliar Popes, and the Church in general; namely, the Church being occupied by Modernists.  
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


Offline Ladislaus

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I can't remember if it was Cajetan or St. John of the Cross who wrote that sedevacantists should not be considered as schismatic if they would be willing to accept a Pope that was not suspect; in other words, a good Pope.

Several Canon Lawyers have stated this as well, but Salza and Siscoe know better.  If there are not "well founded doubts" about the legitimacy of the V2 claimants, then there's no such thing as a well-founded doubt that would excuse schism.

Offline Ladislaus

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You'll notice that Siscoe merely ignored my rebuttal of the UA argument and restated the opinions of a couple theologians.

Offline Marulus Fidelis

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You'll notice that Siscoe merely ignored my rebuttal of the UA argument and restated the opinions of a couple theologians.
Happens every time. 2V just ignored my questions on voting for satan. Mark79 ignored the questions about the nuclear hoax. 

I make it a point to restate the question again at the end of the post and to ask at least twice and even follow up but usually to no avail.

Just goes to show they are not honestly seeking the truth.


Offline Yeti

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Universal Episcopal Acceptance (UEA) is the simplest and shortest argument that manifestly demonstrates that, to anyone of good will open to the objective Truth.
.

The quote you gave mentions two things, not one. It says all the bishops and also the universal Church need to accept someone as pope in order for him to have universal peaceful acceptance. But Bergoglio enjoys neither. He is accepted as pope by public heretics dressed in red who are outside the Church due to modernism and profession of numerous related heresies. Moreover, he does not enjoy the acceptance of the universal Church either. The people you are claiming are the universal Church don't even believe in the Holy Eucharist, most of them, and think abortion is okay, LGBT activities are okay, divorce is okay, married priests are okay, contraception is okay, and socialism is okay. These people are not Catholic, since Catholicism is a religion that requires people to believe its dogmas in order to belong to it, and teaches that people who reject its dogmas automatically lose their membership in the Church.

On the contrary, among the tiny percentage of people who claim to be Catholic who actually can make a claim to actually being Catholic, due to their retention of Catholicism as it was taught before Vatican 2, nearly all of them don't believe Francis is their rule of Faith, and a significant percentage of them say outright that he isn't pope at all.

It really blows my mind to see anybody trying to claim that Francis is accepted as pope by the universal Church.

Offline Ladislaus

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The reader will notice Ladislaus rejects every teaching of theologians he disagrees with as "their opinion", while simultaneously trying to bind us to his conclusions as if they have the authoritative force of Magisterial teachings.

Strawman ... shameless lie.  Where did I attempt to "bind" you or anyone else for that matter to my conclusion?  Where did I claim to have the authority to bind consciences?

I am constantly accused of attempting to bind by various morons after making an argument they can't refute.  They're argued into a corner, have no refutation, and therefore accuse me of attempting to "bind" them.  If I'm binding you, it's only by the sheer force of logic and reason.

This is utterly idiotic.

In point of fact, my primary point was that UA (if there's such a thing) does not apply, and I explained the reasons it doesn't apply, as did Archbishop Vigano.  Then I said, but, as a matter of fact, I don't believe in UA in any kind of absolute sense.  I also explained that Billot himself articulated the principle behind it, namely, that the Church cannot accept a false rule of faith, something which Billot wrote ... but now you attempt to claim is my "Modernist interpretation".  You're such a liar and so full of excrement and intellectual dishonesty that your eyes are brown.

Then, after explaining, as many others have, why UA doesn't apply, I expressed my opinion, contrary to those theologians you cited against any UA in some kind of absolute sense.  I adduce two very weight arguments against it, but you ignore them and engage in ad hominem attacks.

Here are the two arguments against UA:

1) cuм ex Apostolatus clearly states that, according to that legislation, a heretic would not be a legitimate Pope even if he were accepted and given obedience to "by all".  This legislation would be absurd if UA would simply trump it, for the very fact of acceptance by all would guarantee and, in the case of some, even convalidate, his legitimacy.

2) Concrete historical cases where a reigning Pope was taken into exile, and in his absence another elected and universally accepted in his place ... in one case with the reigning pope actively protesting his replacement.  So, unless you believe reigning popes can be deposed by the Church, the UA here cannot effect deposition of a legitimate pope.

You've not refuted either of these, but keep rehashing and repasting your opinion.

Offline Ladislaus

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The quote you gave mentions two things, not one. It says all the bishops and also the universal Church need to accept someone as pope in order for him to have universal peaceful acceptance. But Bergoglio enjoys neither. He is accepted as pope by public heretics dressed in red who are outside the Church due to modernism and profession of numerous related heresies.

So, here's the question.  Were those who accepted Montini also all by and large heretics?  These same bishops just a few years prior you would consider to have binding authority, where if they all agreed on some doctrinal point in 1958, their "teaching" would be binding, but these same men (by and large) suddenly ceased to be Catholic by 1962 when they accepted Montini?  It's easy to apply lack of UA to Jorge Bergoglio, since many even Conciliar types are questioning whether he's a heretic.  But how about for Montini?  We'll put aside Roncalli since his status is disputed overall.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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I can't remember if it was Cajetan or St. John of the Cross who wrote that sedevacantists should not be considered as schismatic if they would be willing to accept a Pope that was not suspect; in other words, a good Pope.

I don't think that +ABL ever thought of sedevacantists as schismatic, but then he knew that there were serious issues and problems with the post-conciliar Popes, and the Church in general; namely, the Church being occupied by Modernists. 


Here it is Meg:


Sedevacantists are not schismatic even if mistaken

Canonists have told us that sedevacantists are not schismatic if they recognize the papacy, do not intend to reject a true pope and act with good reason.

F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his election, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his election or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?