Author Topic: Reading the V2 Council documents  (Read 467 times)

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Offline PG

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Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2018, 11:41:15 AM »
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  • document 1 point 68 -  This could be a big one. "the mother of jesus continues in this present world as the image and first flowering of the church as she is to be perfected in the world to come.  Likewise, mary shines forth on earth, until the day of the lord shall come as a sign of sure hope and solace for the pilgrim people of God."
    How can it be that mary is not yet perfected?  Mary was assumed into heaven and crowned as queen.  She is in heaven, and is therefore perfected.  This says she is still with us on earth and to be perfected in the world to come.  This seems like clear cut heresy to me.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #16 on: April 13, 2018, 12:09:58 PM »
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  • Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #17 on: April 13, 2018, 04:54:27 PM »
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  • "the mother of jesus continues in this present world as the image and first flowering of the church as she is to be perfected in the world to come.  Likewise, mary shines forth on earth, until the day of the lord shall come as a sign of sure hope and solace for the pilgrim people of God.

    Could the "she" here mean the church, rather than Mary? That the church is to be perfected in the world to come? The church is always spoken of in the feminine form "she"; like a ship is always referred to as "she". Either way, it's poorly worded and confusing. If it is meant to speak of Our Lady, then I agree that it smells heretical. 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #18 on: April 13, 2018, 05:02:46 PM »
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  • "the mother of jesus continues in this present world as the image and first flowering of the church as she is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise, mary shines forth on earth, until the day of the lord shall come as a sign of sure hope and solace for the pilgrim people of God.

    Could the "she" here mean the church, rather than Mary? That the church is to be perfected in the world to come? The church is always spoken of in the feminine form "she"; like a ship is always referred to as "she". Either way, it's poorly worded and confusing. If it is meant to speak of Our Lady, then I agree that it smells heretical.
    It's not worth even trying to decipher. All these paragraphs, the one you quoted included, are often utterly meaningless. Full of weasel words and grammatical errors that make discerning the actual meaning impossible, so that they can later revise what they said to have a different meaning if they're ever called up on it. 

    Offline PG

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #19 on: April 13, 2018, 05:51:38 PM »
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  • 1st mansion tennant and forlorn - It think that 1st mansion points out something important.  I think it is under that auspice(the church as she) that this overall statement is made.  However, it is worded such as to suggest another view.  And, that is problematic.  And, that other view happens to be in line with a diabolical theology(feminism) on the rise in our antichristian society.  So, I still think there is a correlation.  It will be necessary to compare this with the latin, and to proceed from there.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #20 on: April 13, 2018, 07:41:39 PM »
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  • PG, here is a gold mine on LG: https://www.scribd.com/document/158994906/Lumen-Gentium-Annotated
    Lumen Gentium Annotated – In his Christmas Address to the Roman Curia, on December 22, 2005, Pope Benedict XVI said that Vatican II was misinterpreted to be a break with the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church. That is, Pope Benedict said that the wrong “hermeneutics” were applied to the council’s teachings. The present study investigates his claim, placing side-by-side the teachings of Lumen Gentium and the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church.

    Online poche

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #21 on: April 13, 2018, 11:39:24 PM »
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  • Why was a Muslim praying the rosary? It seems to me that said Muslim was interested in Catholicism and seeked the truth, and perhaps Mary lent him aid to try and bring him to the Catholic fold.
    It is because the Holy Virgin is the mother of everybody.  

    Online poche

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #22 on: April 13, 2018, 11:41:12 PM »
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  • "the mother of jesus continues in this present world as the image and first flowering of the church as she is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise, mary shines forth on earth, until the day of the lord shall come as a sign of sure hope and solace for the pilgrim people of God.

    Could the "she" here mean the church, rather than Mary? That the church is to be perfected in the world to come? The church is always spoken of in the feminine form "she"; like a ship is always referred to as "she". Either way, it's poorly worded and confusing. If it is meant to speak of Our Lady, then I agree that it smells heretical.
    The Holy Virgin is the first daughter of the Church.


    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #23 on: April 15, 2018, 02:46:23 PM »
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  • Here is a time bomb.  "Explicit intention"  1.14 - Catechumens who moved by the holy spirit seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the church are by that very intention join to her".  What exactly is an explicit intention?  Intention is something that occurs in the mind and or heart.  And, these are interior matters, not exterior matters.  And, something that is explicit is something that is exterior.  So, an explicit intention cannot be.  It does not exist.  So, I think this is a diabolical phrase/concept.  

    Next, the traditional explicit intention would be manifested in the shedding of ones blood or martyrdom.  The blood is an interior matter.  So, that could be accurately described as an explicit intention.  However, we are not to seek martyrdom.  So, to add to the problem of new ambiguous contradictory language, they are promoting seeking martyrdom.  Which, we are taught by the church scripture and tradition not to do.  But, this "moved to seek" phrase is also not clear.  That does not even imply the shedding of blood.  And, death(martydom of catechumen or death preventing reception of the sacrament) is the traditional barometer signifying when and how the church does allow such cases to be "joined to her".  But, "moved to seek" does not signify that really at all.  So, it is not even close to an adequate example of the three baptisms/true baptism of desire.  
    Explicitness and implicitness have nothing whatsoever to do with externality and internality.
    If it is my will to eat this apple here, being cognisant of this as an object of thought, it is an explicit intention, whether or not I announce the fact or ever make it known.
    Something implicit is something that is implied - I’m not sure that an “implicit intention” is an intention at all, but more a consequence of an explicit intention - maybe if I intend to get from point A to point B, not knowing that I need to take the bus, taking the bus is an implicit intention - though there is no guarantee I will intend to take it when I find out I need to!

    Offline PG

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    Re: Reading the V2 Council documents
    « Reply #24 on: April 15, 2018, 05:59:06 PM »
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  • Explicitness and implicitness have nothing whatsoever to do with externality and internality.
    If it is my will to eat this apple here, being cognizant of this as an object of thought, it is an explicit intention, whether or not I announce the fact or ever make it known.
    Something implicit is something that is implied - I’m not sure that an “implicit intention” is an intention at all, but more a consequence of an explicit intention - maybe if I intend to get from point A to point B, not knowing that I need to take the bus, taking the bus is an implicit intention - though there is no guarantee I will intend to take it when I find out I need to!

    Well, an online dictionary says that intention is something that is determined mentally.  And something determined mentally is obviously something determined internally.  Because, matters of the mind are internal matters.  And, something explicit is described in the same dictionary as something clearly developed or formulated.  Something with a clear developed form is something that in both cases can be observed with at least one of the five senses.  And, the five sense deal with exterior or objective matters, not interior or subjective matters.

    You provide a useful way of thinking about explicitness and implicitness with your point A to B analogy.  But, you err by rejecting the interior nature of intention.  Here is how I am thinking about this.  Our fate is not in our own hands.  Our fate is in Gods hands.  As a consequence, none of us can truly manifest and explicit intention.  One could say "I intend to receive the sacrament of baptism by water at the end of my catechism formation".  However, God could cause an earthquake that results in the death of such person.  And, that would determine such intention as only an implicit intention, because such person did not know how to get from A to B.  They didn't even know it is entirely in Gods hands.  So much for that soul's explicit A to B intention.  So, an explicit A to B does not exist for the catholic.  Intention is an implied matter.  And, something implied as with something intentional, is something that is subject.  And that something subject is something subject to us.  

    God is the author of our lives.  We can never exhibit an explicit intention.  That is why catholics often say "God willing" when we speak of our intentions.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

     

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