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Author Topic: TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?  (Read 4415 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2011, 10:07:47 PM »
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  • http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

    APOSTOLIC LETTER  ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS  OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH  ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION TO MEN ALONE

    Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate,

    1. Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.

    When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."(1)

    But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration Inter Insigniores, which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published.(2)

    2. The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."(3) To these fundamental reasons the docuмent adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ's way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: "The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology-thereafter always followed by the Church's Tradition- Christ established things in this way."(4)

    In the Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, I myself wrote in this regard: "In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behavior, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time."(5)

    In fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan; Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, "through the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,(6) the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rv 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers(7) who would succeed them in their ministry.(8) Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles' mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.(9)

    3. Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.

    The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."(10)

    The New Testament and the whole history of the Church give ample evidence of the presence in the Church of women, true disciples, witnesses to Christ in the family and in society, as well as in total consecration to the service of God and of the Gospel. "By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honor and gratitude for those women who-faithful to the Gospel-have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins and mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church's faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel."(11)

    Moreover, it is to the holiness of the faithful that the hierarchical structure of the Church is totally ordered. For this reason, the Declaration Inter Insigniores recalls: "the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. 1 Cor 12 and 13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints."(12)

    4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent docuмents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

    Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

    Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

    From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.



    Offline Jehanne

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #46 on: April 09, 2011, 07:38:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Jehanne
    The very day that he or his predecessor "ordains" a woman to the priesthood is the day that the bishops of the SSPX (and hopefully, SSPV, CMRI, and we really hope, some from the Novus Ordo) get together, excommunicate him, and elect a new Pope, a true Pope.

    Wow.... is that even.. possible- yes anything is... "allowed" ? Makes me think of that "Pope" Michael guy :dancing-banana:


    What's the alternative?



    Um... not doing that and waiting for God to handle it on his own terms- he's allowed the devil to do his destruction  its not for us to circuмvent what ever plan He has. I think electing another pope would add much confusion and scandal to what's already there. As far as I'm concerned, we have the Church and her teachings. We don't need the pope to be saved. And I doubt the CMRI/SSPX/SSPV/ ETC bishops would really come together (unfortunately) to really decide that. Do they even have dialogged now?


    I don't think so.  I see your point, and it's a good one.  Still, confusion is the norm today, so electing a new Pope in the midst of the greater chaos of "ordaining" women to the priesthood would not, I think, increase that chaos if such a future event would ever occur.


    Offline umblehay anmay

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #47 on: April 09, 2011, 09:59:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

    APOSTOLIC LETTER  ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS  OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH  ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION TO MEN ALONE

    Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate,......


    Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.....


    The problem you just don't seem to get is that Modernists don't hold to previous declarations like this.   They can take any decree and give totally new meanings to words or just pretend that what Wo Jo said here didn't really mean what you or I thought it did, and that you have to understand what JPII said here with the mind of the Church.

    Gee????....... "you have to understand these things with the mind of the Church".... where have I heard that line of argument over and over to tell me how the exact words of several previous ex cathedra statements don't really mean what they plainly say????... well that's another topic....but I hope that those of you who get the first point about John Paul's statement also know what I mean in this paragraph.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #48 on: April 09, 2011, 06:51:14 PM »
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  • What credible alternate interpretation is there of these words besides the obvious meaning?

    Also how does one reconcile such a definitive statement by the last Pope with TIA's claim that the Vatican is on the road to ordaining women? Also what of the censures on womenpriests and those who "ordained" them from the Vatican? How do these fit in with this theory?

    Offline umblehay anmay

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #49 on: April 10, 2011, 03:54:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    What credible alternate interpretation is there of these words besides the obvious meaning?

    Also how does one reconcile such a definitive statement by the last Pope with TIA's claim that the Vatican is on the road to ordaining women? Also what of the censures on womenpriests and those who "ordained" them from the Vatican? How do these fit in with this theory?


    The same way modernists can read these statements and totally ignore them....

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441: “…the holy Roman Church, relying on the teaching and authority of the apostles Peter and Paul… uses this form of words in the consecration of the Lord's Body: FOR THIS IS MY BODY. And of His blood: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS."22
    In Pope St. Pius V’s Decree De Defectibus, we find the same words repeated:
    Pope St. Pius V, De Defectibus, chapter 5, Part 1: "The words of Consecration, which are the FORM of this Sacrament, are these: FOR THIS IS MY BODY. And: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS. Now if one were to remove, or change anything in the FORM of the consecration of the Body and Blood, and in that very change of words the [new] wording would fail to mean the same thing, he would not consecrate the sacrament."23


    Offline Sigismund

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #50 on: April 10, 2011, 08:50:19 PM »
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  • Does anyone think the pope is actually goiong to ordain women?  In this Universe?  

    And is there any chance that at least some ofthose pictures are Episcopalian services.  

    We know that a particular group (Roman Catholic WomenPriests) has women who call themselves bishops and who lay their hands on women who then call themselves priests.  We also know that they are no such thing.  It would be nice if these people would just call themselves Old Catholics, which is what they are, but there is really no need to get that upset about them.  No actual Catholics are involved in anything they do.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #51 on: April 10, 2011, 09:20:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: umblehay anmay
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    What credible alternate interpretation is there of these words besides the obvious meaning?

    Also how does one reconcile such a definitive statement by the last Pope with TIA's claim that the Vatican is on the road to ordaining women? Also what of the censures on womenpriests and those who "ordained" them from the Vatican? How do these fit in with this theory?


    The same way modernists can read these statements and totally ignore them....

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441: “…the holy Roman Church, relying on the teaching and authority of the apostles Peter and Paul… uses this form of words in the consecration of the Lord's Body: FOR THIS IS MY BODY. And of His blood: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS."22
    In Pope St. Pius V’s Decree De Defectibus, we find the same words repeated:
    Pope St. Pius V, De Defectibus, chapter 5, Part 1: "The words of Consecration, which are the FORM of this Sacrament, are these: FOR THIS IS MY BODY. And: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS. Now if one were to remove, or change anything in the FORM of the consecration of the Body and Blood, and in that very change of words the [new] wording would fail to mean the same thing, he would not consecrate the sacrament."23


    BXVI is changing the NO words of consecration to "for many"!

    Offline Jehanne

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #52 on: April 10, 2011, 09:29:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote from: umblehay anmay
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    What credible alternate interpretation is there of these words besides the obvious meaning?

    Also how does one reconcile such a definitive statement by the last Pope with TIA's claim that the Vatican is on the road to ordaining women? Also what of the censures on womenpriests and those who "ordained" them from the Vatican? How do these fit in with this theory?


    The same way modernists can read these statements and totally ignore them....

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441: “…the holy Roman Church, relying on the teaching and authority of the apostles Peter and Paul… uses this form of words in the consecration of the Lord's Body: FOR THIS IS MY BODY. And of His blood: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS."22
    In Pope St. Pius V’s Decree De Defectibus, we find the same words repeated:
    Pope St. Pius V, De Defectibus, chapter 5, Part 1: "The words of Consecration, which are the FORM of this Sacrament, are these: FOR THIS IS MY BODY. And: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS. Now if one were to remove, or change anything in the FORM of the consecration of the Body and Blood, and in that very change of words the [new] wording would fail to mean the same thing, he would not consecrate the sacrament."23


    BXVI is changing the NO words of consecration to "for many"!


    The original NO Latin, of course, has the "for many"; it's the translations, for some languages, that caused problems.  Of course, BXVI is getting quite a bit of resistance on his "reform of the reform," so it is difficult to say when the pendulum will begin to swing back the other way.  In a similar vein, "Credo" means "I believe" instead of the communal "We believe..."  Not sure if that is getting fixed or not.  With all of its problems, you are going to have a very hard time convincing Trads to attend a NO Mass, ever, the sole exceptions being weddings, funerals, etc.


    Offline umblehay anmay

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #53 on: April 10, 2011, 10:23:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote from: umblehay anmay
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    What credible alternate interpretation is there of these words besides the obvious meaning?

    Also how does one reconcile such a definitive statement by the last Pope with TIA's claim that the Vatican is on the road to ordaining women? Also what of the censures on womenpriests and those who "ordained" them from the Vatican? How do these fit in with this theory?


    The same way modernists can read these statements and totally ignore them....

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441: “…the holy Roman Church, relying on the teaching and authority of the apostles Peter and Paul… uses this form of words in the consecration of the Lord's Body: FOR THIS IS MY BODY. And of His blood: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS."22
    In Pope St. Pius V’s Decree De Defectibus, we find the same words repeated:
    Pope St. Pius V, De Defectibus, chapter 5, Part 1: "The words of Consecration, which are the FORM of this Sacrament, are these: FOR THIS IS MY BODY. And: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS. Now if one were to remove, or change anything in the FORM of the consecration of the Body and Blood, and in that very change of words the [new] wording would fail to mean the same thing, he would not consecrate the sacrament."23


    BXVI is changing the NO words of consecration to "for many"!


    Gee, and to think... after only four decades of false translation.   Now, what about he mysterium fidei?   The true mystery of faith is incorporated into the true consecration to show with out a doubt that that IS the central mystery.   But, in the Novus Disordo, the mystery of faith is one of multiple choices.  

    The point was, that modernists don't care what previous Papal declarations have said.  They are always willing to keep turning up the heat on the frog they put in the cold pot of water many decades before Vat. II.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    TIA: How long will it take to ordain woman priests?
    « Reply #54 on: April 10, 2011, 10:55:54 PM »
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  • Mysterium Fidei is IN the NO. In the Latin it refers back to the consecration which just took place.