Author Topic: RatzingerBenedict XVI commits communicatio in sacris with Anglicans... (Read 4501 times)

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #15 on:** September 27, 2010, 03:40:09 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Hard to believe that some can still believe a pope can be a pope of two religions.

I know you're a sedevacanist, but there is no need to knock off SSPX Catholics just because most of them believe Benedict XVI is still Pope. True, he isn't Traditional, but he's still the Pope whether we like it or not. And really, I don't like it because I want a Traditional Pope. Of coruse, we certainly don't have to like it.

Wessex · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2010, 04:57:57 PM »

We must not expect the Rome of today to plough a different furrow than the one consistent with the new order. I am neither shocked nor surprised by the stream of novelty and progressivism regularly emerging from that quarter; I expect it. Her reworking of Catholic history and accommodations with other religions provide the 'correct' background with which to set the wonderful Vatican Council and the new beginning from which all manner of new things will flow. What does surprise me however are those trads who admit "the Church is finished" and yet bow to the leader of the new church because they feel they have nowhere else to go. What was understandable in the early years of the Council when things were in flux is now hard to justify after fifty years and will be unbelievable after another fifty years. Trads must get their act together to ensure the Church still continues.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #17 on:** September 27, 2010, 05:33:17 PM »

Sorry but as a Catholic I was taught that a pope can NOT be a leader of Truth and error.

Since folks here voice their opinion so freely, I guess I can voice mine. No knocking SSPX per se, just saying I don't understand them in that one point, knowing all along we still have the same faith. Knowing too, that someday God will right this crisis, maybe not in my time, but it would be nice.

OHCA · « **Reply #18 on:** September 27, 2010, 06:32:55 PM »

Quote from: Belloc

. . . though if the ages at Trad Masses vs NO are any indication, they are dying out....also, the NO has less children...so in a certain sense, it is a numbers game....

Belloc,

I absolutely agree with you. Shame on me, but I still attend N.O. about half the time. My parish is the most conservative N.O. parish I've ever seen (Communion rail has returned; receiving in hand is STRONGLY discouraged; priests explain why we shouldn't hold hands during "Our Father;" hand-shaking was even stopped for awhile; Motu is gladly offered; etc.).

Who are the ones defying the priests in ALL of the above--the baby boomers. The boomers were the anomaly generation that loved No Rules; No Guidelines; Subjective Right & Wrong; No Hell; etc. It is much more normal, in my opinion, to want clear parameters, especially among those schooled at even a basic level in the Catholic Faith.

Though the younger generation needs to be fed with what is more consistent with the traditional offerings, they don't know where to go. This largely describes myself--I'm 38 years old, and I didn't know about traditional options until the last few years. What about today's teenagers and college kids, who were raised by parents who never knew tradition, kids for whom tradition is "ancient history."

I say the time is right, or very much on the cusp of being so, for traditionalists to go into N.O. parishes and demand and get real change! By remaining in what is perceived as the "outside," traditionalists are marginalizing their potential for changing things back; because they're perceived as being "outside," kids who woud earnestly be interested are scared of going to hell to check out what tradition is all about.

I believe most SSPX would consider those I describe to be "Catholic." If so, isn't something of a moral duty owed to those I describe to do all we can to set things right. I'm not buying the response "They can come to us." First, at least in my part of the world, they don't know you're out there. Second, the young ones would fear for their souls (based on principles you would consider admirable) to check out traditionalists due to the "outside the Church" perception.

I'm using the collective "you," Belloc--not trying to weigh you down, my friend.

Alexandria · « **Reply #19 on:** September 27, 2010, 06:42:21 PM »

Quote

Who are the ones defying the priests in ALL of the above--the baby boomers. The boomers were the anomaly generation that loved No Rules; No Guidelines; Subjective Right & Wrong; No Hell; etc.

Pardon me, but this Boomer has something to say.

Take a look around at your own peers and younger.

trad123 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2010, 06:47:22 PM »

Quote from: OHCA

I say the time is right, or very much on the cusp of being so, for traditionalists to go into N.O. parishes and demand and get real change!

Even if the Norvus Ordo mass was dropped, and the Latin Mass became the norm using the correct Latin translation for the form of the sacrament, there is still the issue of the validity of the new rite of Holy Orders. The mass is not the crux of the problem, it's DOCTRINE.

Vatican II is inescapable. However, for myself the Sedevacante thesis solves that issue on a practical basis.

trad123 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 27, 2010, 06:53:23 PM »

Quote

also, hard to believe all these months later, still no Sedes-only forum.....but, we live in strange and confusing times, no?

There was a forum moderated by, I believe, Gladius, and another fellow by the username of Sebastian, if I remember correctly. For whatever reason it was taken down. There was also Mr. Lane's forum, but time constraints prevented him from continuing to moderate the forum, so he decided to close it, but his "Bellarmine" forum can still be viewed, you're merely unable to post.

None of these forums, I believe, was truly "Sede-only", but they were "Sede oriented".

Alexandria · « **Reply #22 on:** September 27, 2010, 06:54:01 PM »

OHCA · « **Reply #23 on:** September 27, 2010, 09:13:29 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

Quote
Who are the ones defying the priests in ALL of the above--the baby boomers. The boomers were the anomaly generation that loved No Rules; No Guidelines; Subjective Right & Wrong; No Hell; etc.

Pardon me, but this Boomer has something to say.

Take a look around at your own peers and younger.

My apologies to traditional boomers. I usually caveat such statements to make it clear that I understand there are traditional boomers and they are appreciated. I grew up in a hopelessly liberal N.O. parish. My family was one of the most conservative in the parish. My parents are older than boomers. The boomer and older crew were running the show and it was liberal.

Now I'm fortunate to be in a very conservative N.O. that values tradition. But the boomers are clearly the liberals rejecting tradition here (I know this may be anecdotal). And particularly promising here, the liberal boomers' young adult children (25 - 35) seem to be embracing the traditional elements we enjoy in my parish. I think the information as to whether particular age groups cling to the laxities and others are open to tradition could be productive. What's others' experiences?

Certainly not trying to start a generation war. In any event, most anyone on this forum, regardless of generation, has the right perspective that tradition is, at a minimum, preferable.

My hope is that ALL who sincerely believe they are clinging to the Catholic Faith are able to unite. I fully support the notion that the clock must be rolled back in terms of the many lax practices I've elsewhere referenced, and, especially, in terms any doctrinal problems, ambiguities, etc., borne out of V-II. If I had it my way, the clock would be rolled back pre the Papacy of John XXIII. I can't fault the current Pope for not doing so overnight. I know most of you won't agree with me on this. I wish anything in the world had happened to have prevented us from being in this crisis. But I'm not sure a Pope should turn it back 100% overnight. That said, I don't think the libs should get anymore, nor even quite as much, time as they gave us. And for the ones who cannot accept the proper changes after given a little time and much good-willed explanation, they are not Catholic.

Y'all can badmouth Pope Benedict XVI all you want, but his welcome changes are about 25 years ahead of the schedule I expected. I think we went through 2 crippling Papacies (had I been exposed to the Sede position when I was about 19 or 20, I'd probably say non-Papacies and to hell with it), and, in hindsight for me, a mediocre 27 years, and now it feels like we're taking baby-steps in the right direction, for the most part.

And Myrna, I have faith that things will be set straight in my lifetime. It will be a shame if it's not in time for the older traditionalist who obviously love the fullness of the Faith.

Alexandria · « **Reply #24 on:** September 28, 2010, 11:44:22 AM »

I will tell you how I see it at my age.

I would hardly call the 26 year reign of JPII mediocre. Truthfully, I consider him to have been a chastisement on the Church. God forgive me (especially if he was truly a pope), but I don't think anyone sighed a heavier sigh of relief as I when he died.

As for Benedict and the present time, these men are not stupid by any means. There has been a great leakage in the church - many stopped going all together and others jumped ship for either some protestant denomination or the SSPX/sedes. They had to do something to stop it. So, after they stole the car out of your garage, they offered you back the muffler. In other words, now that the conciliar faith is deeply rooted and Catholics have been sufficiently desensitized and brainwashed, they bring back some things of the traditional church to stop people from leaving. It is like Bishop Fellay said one in a talk he gave at the local SSPX chapel, the modern day church can be likened to a zoo. They have now given the traditionals their own cage to make them happy and to regain the only souls they consider lost.

Belloc · « **Reply #25 on:** September 28, 2010, 12:04:01 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

Quote
Who are the ones defying the priests in ALL of the above--the baby boomers. The boomers were the anomaly generation that loved No Rules; No Guidelines; Subjective Right & Wrong; No Hell; etc.

Pardon me, but this Boomer has something to say.

Take a look around at your own peers and younger.

most that resist the TLM and tradition are boomers, you and many excepted from that of course.....

let us hope that the NO eitherdies out or morphs and goes its own way, out......like the Waldesians, who started out fair, then went downhill and are now largely Reformed....

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #26 on:** September 28, 2010, 08:35:02 PM »

Quote from: OHCA

I fully support the notion that the clock must be rolled back in terms of the many lax practices I've elsewhere referenced, and, especially, in terms any doctrinal problems, ambiguities, etc., borne out of V-II. If I had it my way, the clock would be rolled back pre the Papacy of John XXIII. I can't fault the current Pope for not doing so overnight. I know most of you won't agree with me on this. I wish anything in the world had happened to have prevented us from being in this crisis. But I'm not sure a Pope should turn it back 100% overnight. That said, I don't think the libs should get anymore, nor even quite as much, time as they gave us. And for the ones who cannot accept the proper changes after given a little time and much good-willed explanation, they are not Catholic.

Meantime many Novus Ordites are living in grave error, heresy and grave sin. People are dying every day and facing judgement.

If a pope thinks that reform and return to sound doctrine is needed, there is no excuse to do it slowly over time while souls are lost along the way. Lost for eternity.

A real genuine traditional pope would shine the light and lead the way. God would give sufficient grace to people of good will.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #27 on:** September 29, 2010, 08:46:35 AM »

The way I see it is the NO are those who left, and those who remained faithful to the teachings of Christ are the remnant.

True, I followed with the NO for a time, but then I came back home where I belong. When I jumped ship was when I followed along with the NO. It was easy for me to recognize after awhile because while attending a Catholic school, I was told that anyone can fall even a pope, but then he loses his office. Told this many times by the good nuns in the 50's.

Belloc · « **Reply #28 on:** September 29, 2010, 09:43:19 AM »

Would agree w/Myrna on the first part, the NO is a new religion and not the True one...

as to those ever present 50's nuns, too bad they did not warn against Americanism, but then again, Bishop Ireland and his gang won out...part of their teaching was of course, incorporated in Modernism......

but, we are sometimes wounded and decieved in our age, are we not folks! Even Bishop Sheen at times was off kilter as was many others....must not get as (rabid?)rigid as CM, who I just glanced at his site, is now excommunicating Leo XIII....

oh and final thought in this response, it was teh pew sitters in the 40's and 50's that went along with Modernism, those that went along because "Father said so" and offered no resistance, none at all....when we left our NO parish in the early 80's, do to open heretic priest there, my grandparents (born in 1919) thought we were nuts and making stuff up, stated "well, he did not do anything to us".

Wrong, he was a heretic to everyone and destroying everyone's Faith....besides us, that next Sunday, about 1/2 church walked to other ones and never came back....voting with their feet and their money....

Wrong to follow an evil Pope in his error/sin, also, wrong to be Americanist, following even more erroneous teaching....

set-match :dancing-banana:

Alexandria · « **Reply #29 on:** September 29, 2010, 11:26:37 AM »

Quote

nd final thought in this response, it was teh pew sitters in the 40's and 50's that went along with Modernism, those that went along because "Father said so" and offered no resistance, none at all....

They would never have thought in their wildest dreams that any priest, let alone a pope, would mislead them. They were trusting in their priests and in their Church. That is how they sold the VII "renewal" on the faithful. It worked then, and it works now. If you think that that mentality is gone in the novus church, wander over to CAF and give a read.