Author Topic: Raoul and NFP: Why? (Read 3107 times)

Caminus · « **Reply #15 on:** October 26, 2009, 07:17:14 AM »

A wise Catholic prince is married to a woman of the same class, or for certain physical traits with a hope of passing them to their progeny, is an form of "eugenics."

A man and woman who are certain to produce mutilated children are allowed to forego children altogether provided their will is upright. This is what was meant by a "eugenic indication."

Then there are evil forms of "eugenics" like advocated by the wicked M. Sanger.

You just don't like the word because it now has bad connotations.

CMMM · « **Reply #16 on:** October 26, 2009, 03:46:15 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

I know two happily married Catholic couples who would gladly pipe in on the issue of NFP and the fact that it's EVIL.

How long have they been married? How many children do they have?

Caminus · « **Reply #17 on:** October 26, 2009, 05:44:48 PM »

Raoul, is stealing mortally sinful? Is it contrary to the Divine Law? Yes or no, I refuse to read pages of rambling.

SJB · « **Reply #18 on:** October 27, 2009, 04:49:27 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

I think that this was carefully set up over time, the two responses from the Sacred Penitentiary in the 19th century, Casti Connubi, and then "Allocution to Midwives." You went from the laity occasionally using the rhythm method, which was mostly overlooked, to the Church actually TEACHING eugenic spacing of births or even elimination of births using a new souped-up form of the rhythm method. "Rhythm" went from being overlooked to being counselled to being taught from the Throne of Peter itself. This is pure gradualism, people were indoctrinated slowly.

You are claiming something heretical here, I'm afraid. The Pope confirms his brethern in the Faith. You are claiming he indoctrinates the Faithful in errors.

Caminus · « **Reply #19 on:** October 27, 2009, 04:13:46 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Raoul, is stealing mortally sinful? Is it contrary to the Divine Law? Yes or no, I refuse to read pages of rambling.

Classiccom · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2009, 10:14:22 AM »

CHANTCD "Raoul DOES have a good intellect, even though I disagree with him on some things.

As I said before, posts like his are what I'd like to see on CathInfo. I read them, and can see that he makes many good points. He is using his reason -- if only more people did that."

============================================

Pride goes before a fall. Faith is a gift from God. The Devil is also proud of his vast intellect. You all are suffering from "Iinfallible Disease". Your approach to Christianity is just the opposite of Jesus Christ. Heal yourself before you promulgate your ideas on how mankind should control the universe.

Matthew · « **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2009, 10:49:05 AM »

Classiccom,

Your rash judgment is not appreciated.

I may be on the computer to earn a living, but I spend plenty of time taking care of 5 acres by myself. And, personally, I am very anti-technology (as a religion) and advocate a more natural life, where God (not man) is in control. I advocate a limited use of technology -- I think all technology should carry a warning label with potential side-effects.

Shows how much you know about me -- not very much.

How much land do you maintain?

Matthew

Belloc · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2009, 10:51:42 AM »

what do you grow on that 5 acres? several things or one crop? Do you use tractor or mre by hand? Sounds nice, though hard work no doubt.....

Belloc · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2009, 10:53:08 AM »

Quote from: Classiccom

You all are suffering from "Iinfallible Disease". Your approach to Christianity is just the opposite of Jesus Christ. Heal yourself before you promulgate your ideas on how mankind should control the universe.

hey, can you and CM do battle, that would be interesting-a fight of the last Catholic on earth's....

seriously, what is the symptoms of the "infallibles disease"?? What is its etiology?

Belloc · « **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2009, 10:54:10 AM »

Quote from: C.M.M.M

Quote from: Catholic Martyr
I know two happily married Catholic couples who would gladly pipe in on the issue of NFP and the fact that it's EVIL.

How long have they been married? How many children do they have?

also, what is the basis for evil? Dod they have quotew, docuмents,etc-or just opinions?

Belloc · « **Reply #25 on:** October 30, 2009, 10:57:22 AM »

Quote from: ChantCd

First of all, I would like to point out that the "NFP" thread is exactly what I like to see on CathInfo. We have reasoned discussion, and we're all trying to get to the bottom of important issues.

Of course, we have this Crisis in the Church which means that certain issues will never be resolved definitively -- for example, anything that only existed in the last 10, 20, or 40 years would have existed only after Vatican II. So the Rome of neo-Modernist tendencies will not act as it should -- for example, the Church used to have an Index of forbidden books. Reading books on the Index was sinful. Would a truly Catholic Rome put most movies/TV shows on the Index? You bet. But since they haven't, you have a constant debate about TV.

When I read Raoul's thread on NFP, a few questions popped into my mind:

1. Why Raoul, and why this topic? Why is a single man spending dozens (hundreds?) of hours on an issue that affects only those in the married state.

2. Even though he's not being paid to do this, it's not part of his Duty of State (as it would be for a Priest), and he's not pursuing a degree in that area?

3. Has Raoul considered that many priests, including holy ones, have thought about these same issues and not come to the same radical conclusions as he? Does that not raise red flags for him? Or is he quick to humbly accept the fact that he is a genius groundbreaking pioneer in the Traditional movement? (Ok, that was a bit of a stretch)

4. Does Raoul really think that NFP is the central issue, bar none, facing the Traditional Catholic world? That would mean that if everyone stopped using NFP, the world would improve more than if any other one thing was done. But wouldn't all those kids end up in public school, injected with poisons (vaccinated) and sent to die in Illuminati-contrived wars overseas? How can "more Catholics", in itself, be the solution? By itself, it is nothing. Especially if all those Catholics end up in hell because of more serious issues, including spiritual ones, in the world today.

5. Does he realize the contradiction between his own personal stance ("I'm not ever going to marry or have kids, because the world is going to Hell") and his belief that NFP is the prime issue in the Catholic world?

6. Does Raoul appreciate the correlation between his own personal status (single man, practicing ongoing abstinence) and his seeming obsession with abstinence for married couples? There is a phenomenon which applies many places -- not just here -- whereby a strong man looks down on the weakling, the money-savvy looks down on the bad-with-money person, the computer nerd looks down on the AOL-user, etc. because, to them, certain things are "easy" and so anyone should be able to do them.

Whatever a man is strong in, he is less likely to be compassionate about. If a man is convinced of his own sinfulness, he will have compassion on sinners. But if he never had a hard time with drunkenness, for example, he will be especially hard on drunks -- since alcohol was never a difficulty for him.

More later...

Matthew

In short, he has sidelined his Faith by listening too much to CM and those like him, but also, he feels there are no valid priests, let alone holy ones or, very few, so that arguement is lost on him.

On another thrad, he said something to the affect that the world is bad and evil, sorry to be here,etc....could be why his approach to sex,etc is distorted.....

your poinst #'s 4 and 5 are spot on and need no further input from a non-cnju-gate-ing and mizspller such as my self.

Matthew · « **Reply #26 on:** October 30, 2009, 11:05:30 AM »

Quote from: Belloc

what do you grow on that 5 acres? several things or one crop? Do you use tractor or mre by hand? Sounds nice, though hard work no doubt.....

Right now I'm "clearing the land" including all the 1-foot potholes that opened up recently. (I guess a severe drought followed by excessive rain will do that!) I had to remove 3 dozen mesquite trees last year, which are very thorny and puncture a mower's tires. I'm removing a bunch of redundant shrubbery (a lot of it has thorns), so I can mow a bit easier. But now I have to finish removing the stumps, then I have to fill in the holes where the stumps were.

Whenever I get enough cardboard/paper/brush saved up, I have a "stump burning" session.

Once I get the land under control, so mowing becomes a much more easy and boring job, I plan to get some animals -- the only question is what kind and how many.

Right now, though, I have a decent garden (though I can't take good care of it yet -- way too busy keeping my land from becoming a jungle) and I have a small orchard I planted last fall.

We've only been here for 16 months -- so, as you can see, I've been very busy! I don't have any help yet, either. My oldest (Dominic) is only 3 1/2. He tries, though. Yesterday he was helping shovel dirt into buckets, put the buckets on a wagon, then wheeled the wagon to one of the many potholes, and dumped it.

Matthew

Telesphorus · « **Reply #27 on:** October 30, 2009, 11:16:06 AM »

Quote from: ChantCd

Quote from: Belloc
what do you grow on that 5 acres? several things or one crop? Do you use tractor or mre by hand? Sounds nice, though hard work no doubt.....

Right now I'm "clearing the land" including all the 1-foot potholes that opened up recently. (I guess a severe drought followed by excessive rain will do that!) I had to remove 3 dozen mesquite trees last year, which are very thorny and puncture a mower's tires. I'm removing a bunch of redundant shrubbery (a lot of it has thorns), so I can mow a bit easier. But now I have to finish removing the stumps, then I have to fill in the holes where the stumps were.

Whenever I get enough cardboard/paper/brush saved up, I have a "stump burning" session.

Once I get the land under control, so mowing becomes a much more easy and boring job, I plan to get some animals -- the only question is what kind and how many.

Right now, though, I have a decent garden (though I can't take good care of it yet -- way too busy keeping my land from becoming a jungle) and I have a small orchard I planted last fall.

We've only been here for 16 months -- so, as you can see, I've been very busy! I don't have any help yet, either. My oldest (Dominic) is only 3 1/2. He tries, though. Yesterday he was helping shovel dirt into buckets, put the buckets on a wagon, then wheeled the wagon to one of the many potholes, and dumped it.

Matthew

Wow Chant. I wish you luck with your efforts. It's not at all easy to attempt to seriously increase self-sufficiency.

Belloc · « **Reply #28 on:** October 30, 2009, 11:23:55 AM »

Quote from: ChantCd

Quote from: Belloc
what do you grow on that 5 acres? several things or one crop? Do you use tractor or mre by hand? Sounds nice, though hard work no doubt.....

Right now I'm "clearing the land" including all the 1-foot potholes that opened up recently. (I guess a severe drought followed by excessive rain will do that!) I had to remove 3 dozen mesquite trees last year, which are very thorny and puncture a mower's tires. I'm removing a bunch of redundant shrubbery (a lot of it has thorns), so I can mow a bit easier. But now I have to finish removing the stumps, then I have to fill in the holes where the stumps were.

Whenever I get enough cardboard/paper/brush saved up, I have a "stump burning" session.

Once I get the land under control, so mowing becomes a much more easy and boring job, I plan to get some animals -- the only question is what kind and how many.

Right now, though, I have a decent garden (though I can't take good care of it yet -- way too busy keeping my land from becoming a jungle) and I have a small orchard I planted last fall.

We've only been here for 16 months -- so, as you can see, I've been very busy! I don't have any help yet, either. My oldest (Dominic) is only 3 1/2. He tries, though. Yesterday he was helping shovel dirt into buckets, put the buckets on a wagon, then wheeled the wagon to one of the many potholes, and dumped it.

Matthew

Cool deal, a lot of good honest nad of course, ahrd work...may Belloc,Chesterton and Fr.McNabb look kindly on you and aid you.....

Matthew · « **Reply #29 on:** October 30, 2009, 11:34:18 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: ChantCd

We've only been here for 16 months -- so, as you can see, I've been very busy! I don't have any help yet, either. My oldest (Dominic) is only 3 1/2. He tries, though. Yesterday he was helping shovel dirt into buckets, put the buckets on a wagon, then wheeled the wagon to one of the many potholes, and dumped it.

Matthew

Wow Chant. I wish you luck with your efforts. It's not at all easy to attempt to seriously increase self-sufficiency.

It's true that self-sufficiency is a good thing, but that's not the only reason I'm doing this.

I am doing this for the benefits of the down-to-earth lifestyle, including health and the physical/spiritual health of my children. I want plenty of privacy and land for them to play on, and things for them to do in "the real world". Our kids won't be on "screens" until they're old enough to use a computer to do book reports or something. Even then, I want them to be able to write a report by hand first.

We know where the sun comes up and goes down, which direction North is, if the moon is getting fuller (waxing) or smaller (waning), and what the weather's doing. We're aware of the local weather patterns here, etc. We line-dry our laundry, so we can't afford to be ignorant about that.

When I was a teenager, and living in the city, none of that was true for me. I still couldn't tell you which side of my family's house faced south -- and I lived there for 10 years.

We also like to run "climate control" as little as possible -- we open the windows whenever we can.

Man vs. nature is a good way to build masculinity. A man HAS TO conquer something (not necessarily nature) or overcome some kind of obstacles, to be a man. If life is predictable and easy, he will be a wimp at best.

As a corollary, becoming a saint is a very masculine thing, because it requires much effort and discipline to overcome one's fallen nature and build up virtue. Too bad many men don't understand this.

Matthew