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Author Topic: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism  (Read 4797 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2020, 05:49:24 PM »
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  • So a sede site is your source. Isn't that convenient.

    I'm not going to order anything. You can't prove your assertion. As usual. You are not honest.

    2Vermont cited The Angelus.  Talk about being dishonest ... and a liar.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #46 on: January 12, 2020, 05:50:52 PM »
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  • From the same article linked to be 2Vermong:

    +Lefebvre:
    Quote
    ...I am on the way to saying the Pope is not Pope...

    ... to characterize the very remarks cited earlier.

    SeanJohnson and Meg are abject liars.  Your purpose/mission on this forum is to derail any rational discussion of these subjects among Catholics sincerely seeking the truth.

    And the truth about Archbishop Lefebvre is that ...

    1) he was occasionally against sedevacantism (right after the election of JP2 when he had some hope about him)
    2) he was occasionally very sympathetic to sedevacantism and struggled with whether or not to become one himself (leading up to Assisi)
    3) most of the time he wasn't sedevacantist, but he tolerated sedevacantism and considered it possible, probable, and tenable (unlike SeanJohnson and Meg)

    Meg and SeanJohnson lie by trying to portray Archbishop Lefebvre as unambiguously against sedevacantism.  Any honest objective reader will conclude that he wavered on this issue, sometimes being against, sometimes for, and sometimes merely tolerant.  It depended on what was gonig on in the Conciliar establishment.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #47 on: January 12, 2020, 05:59:27 PM »
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  • 2Vermont cited The Angelus.  Talk about being dishonest ... and a liar.

    You and other sedes and sedwhatevers need to actually post a citation for your assertions. I do not trust anything that you or other sedes and sedwhatevers post. And you know why.

    You are wrong about your views as to the "sedevacantist" views of +ABL. You always get away with lying about this, and I'm tired of it. The forum owner doesn't care if you and others continually lie, but I, for one, do care. Not that it will do any good to point your lies out. 

    You appear to have a full-time job here on the forum, pushing your lies. But for whom? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #48 on: January 12, 2020, 06:22:52 PM »
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  • You and other sedes and sedwhatevers need to actually post a citation for your assertions. I do not trust anything that you or other sedes and sedwhatevers post. And you know why.

    You are wrong about your views as to the "sedevacantist" views of +ABL. You always get away with lying about this, and I'm tired of it. The forum owner doesn't care if you and others continually lie, but I, for one, do care. Not that it will do any good to point your lies out.

    You appear to have a full-time job here on the forum, pushing your lies. But for whom?
    What are you talking about?  They did "actually post a citation".  There is a link in this thread, in reply #29.  I clicked on it and there was an Angelus article that said exactly what they claimed it did.

    There is no reason whatsoever to claim that Ladislaus and 2Vermont are lying about this.  

    I am not a sede.  But I can tell who is making sense in this discussion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #49 on: January 12, 2020, 06:31:09 PM »
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  • What are you talking about?  They did "actually post a citation".  There is a link in this thread.  I clicked on it and there was an Angelus article that said exactly what they claimed it did.

    There is no reason whatsoever to claim that Ladislaus and 2Vermont are lying about this.  

    I am not a sede.  But I can tell who is making sense in this discussion.

    Thank you for a breath of fresh air and some sanity.  ByzCat is also a sedeplenist, and he too concluded, from reading the actual evidence, that the Archbishop in fact wavered.  At the end of the day, I don't really care what position someone takes ... just be honest about it and sincere, for crying out loud.  Just say, "I don't agree with when Archbishop Lefebvre said those things about sedevacantism," and we're done.  But that those who say he did are lying or fabricating quotations, etc., even after we provided links?  That borders on insanity.  Or, if you want to make a rational argument that, "well, that's what he said, but he really mean ..." (based on some rational evidence rather than wishful thinking), that's fine too.


    Offline 54rosary

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #50 on: January 12, 2020, 08:12:28 PM »
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  • "They object: you are judging the Catholic faith. But is it not the most serious duty of all Catholics to judge the faith (the doctrine) that is being taught to them today by that which has been taught and believed for twenty centuries and which is written in the official catechisms such as that of Trent, of Saint Pius X and in all the catechisms before Vatican II? How have all the true faithful acted when faced with heresies? They have preferred to shed their blood rather than betray their faith.

    "That the heresy come to us from someone that be as elevated in dignity as possible, the problem is the same for the salvation of our souls. In this regard many of the faithful are in grave ignorance as to the nature and the extension of the infallibility of the Pope. Many think that every word that comes from the mouth of the Pope is infallible.

    "On the other hand, if it appears certain to us that the faith which was taught by the Church for twenty centuries cannot contain error, we have much less of an absolute certitude that the Pope be truly Pope. Heresy, schism, ipso facto excommunication, and invalid election are some causes which could make it happen that a Pope never was one or would cease to be one. In this obviously very exceptional case, the Church would be in a situation similar to that which occurs after the death of a sovereign pontiff.



    Accueil
    Communicantes: August - October 2002
     
    We Cannot Through Servile Obedience Go Along With The Schismatics

     Interview with Archbishop Lefebvre in Écône, of August 2nd, 1976 and published in the French magazine Le Figaro, August 4, 1976




    https://www.fsspx.com/Communicantes/Oct2002/Servile_Obedience.htm

    Offline 54rosary

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #51 on: January 12, 2020, 08:40:32 PM »
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  • Accueil
    Communicantes: August - October 2002
     
    We Cannot Through Servile Obedience Go Along With The Schismatics
    Interview with Archbishop Lefebvre in Écône, of August 2nd, 1976 and published in the French magazine Le Figaro, August 4, 1976. It is important for us to read this text again, 26 years later.

    Le Figaro: "After the suspension 'a divinis' which struck him (in 1976), Archbishop Lefebvre by no means considers to submit. He does not believe in the possibility of a reconciliation with Rome and risks the pronouncement of an excommunication against him and his disciples."

    -"Your Excellency, are you not bordering on schism?"

    -Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: "That is the question that many Catholics ask after reading of the latest sanctions taken by Rome against us! Catholics, for the most part, define or imagine schism as a rupture with the Pope. They do not go any further in their investigation. You have ruptured with the Pope or the Pope has ruptured with you, therefore you are going into schism.

    "Why does a rupture with the Pope cause schism? Because where the Pope is, there is the Catholic Church. Thus, in reality, it is to depart from the Catholic Church. Now the Catholic Church is a mystical reality that exists not only in space and on the surface of the earth, but also in time and in eternity. For the Pope to represent the Church and to be its image, he must not only be united to her in space but also in time (throughout History), as the Church is essentially a living tradition.

    "To the degree that the Pope departs from this tradition, he becomes schismatic, he breaks with the Church. Theologians such as Saint Bellarmine, Cajetan, Cardinal Journet and many others have studied this possibility. It is not something inconceivable.

    "But it is the Second Vatican Council and its reforms, its official orientations, which concern us more than the personal attitude of the Pope, which is difficult to discern.

    "This Council represents, both in the opinion of the Roman authorities as in our own, A NEW CHURCH which they call themselves the "CONCILIAR CHURCH".

    "We believe that we can affirm, taking into consideration the internal and external critique (review) on Vatican II, that is, in analysing the texts and in studying its circuмstances and its consequences, that the Council, turning its back on Tradition and breaking with the Church of the past, is a SCHISMATIC COUNCIL. The tree is known by its fruits. Since the Council, all the larger newspapers throughout the world, American and European, recognise that it is destroying the Catholic Church to such a degree that even the unbelievers and the secular governments are worried. A non-aggressive agreement has been made between the Church and masonry. It was covered up by calling it aggiornamento, reaching out to the world, ecuмenism. From the time of the Council, the Church has accepted to not be the only true religion, the only way to eternal salvation. She recognizes the other religions as sister religions. She recognizes the right granted to the nature of the human person to be free to choose its religion and that consequently, a Catholic state or government is no longer acceptable.

    "Accepting this NEW PRINCIPLE, all the doctrine of the Church must change, as well as its cult, its priesthood, its institutions, because everything in the Church until the Council had demonstrated that she alone possessed the Way, the Truth and the Life in Our Lord Jesus Christ, Whom she kept in person in the Holy Eucharist, and Who is present thanks to the continuation of His sacrifice. Thus a total overturning of Tradition and of the teaching of the Church has occurred since the Council and through the Council.

    "All those who cooperate in the application of this overturning accept and adhere to this new "Conciliar Church", as His Excellency Mgr. Benelli called it in the letter that he sent me in the name of the Holy Father last June 25, and they enter into the schism. The adoption of the liberal theses by a council could only have taken place in a pastoral council that was not infallible and cannot be explained except through a secret and meticulous preparation, that the historians will end up discovering to the great astonishment of the Catholics who confuse the eternal Roman Catholic Church with human Rome, susceptible of being invaded by enemies covered in scarlet.

    "How could we, through a servile and blind obedience, go along with these schismatics who demand us to collaborate in their attempt at the DESTRUCTION OF THE CHURCH?

    "The authority delegated by Our Lord to the Pope, to the bishops and to the priesthood in general is at the service of the faith in His divinity and of the transmission of His own divine life. All the divine or ecclesiastical institutions are meant for this end. All the rights, all the laws, have no other end but this. To use the laws, the institutions and the authority to annihilate the Catholic Faith and to no longer communicate life, is to practice spiritual abortion or contraception. Who would dare to say that a Catholic worthy of his name could cooperate in a crime worse than corporal abortion?

    "That is why we submit ourselves and are willing to accept all that which is in conformity with our Catholic faith, such as has been taught by her for two thousand years, but we refuse all that which is opposed to it.

    "They object: you are judging the Catholic faith. But is it not the most serious duty of all Catholics to judge the faith (the doctrine) that is being taught to them today by that which has been taught and believed for twenty centuries and which is written in the official catechisms such as that of Trent, of Saint Pius X and in all the catechisms before Vatican II? How have all the true faithful acted when faced with heresies? They have preferred to shed their blood rather than betray their faith.

    "That the heresy come to us from someone that be as elevated in dignity as possible, the problem is the same for the salvation of our souls. In this regard many of the faithful are in grave ignorance as to the nature and the extension of the infallibility of the Pope. Many think that every word that comes from the mouth of the Pope is infallible.

    "On the other hand, if it appears certain to us that the faith which was taught by the Church for twenty centuries cannot contain error, we have much less of an absolute certitude that the Pope be truly Pope. Heresy, schism, ipso facto excommunication, and invalid election are some causes which could make it happen that a Pope never was one or would cease to be one. In this obviously very exceptional case, the Church would be in a situation similar to that which occurs after the death of a sovereign pontiff.

    "Because in fact a serious problem is being posed to the conscience and to the faith of all the Catholics since the beginning of the pontificate of Paul VI. How is it that a Pope, the true successor of Peter, assured of the assistance of the Holy Spirit, could preside at the destruction of the Church, the most profound and the most widespread in history to occur in so little space of time, that which no heretic has ever succeeded in doing?

    "This question will have to be answered one day, but leaving this problem to the theologians and the historians, the reality forces us to a practical response, according to the counsel of Saint Vincent of Lerins: 'What should the Catholic Christian do if a part of the Church were to detach itself from communion with the universal law? What other side could he take but to prefer instead of the gangrenous and corrupted member, the body in its whole which is healthy? And if some new contagion would poison not only a small part of the Church but the entire Church all at the same time! Then again, his great concern would be TO STAY WITH THE ANTIQUITY, which, of course, can no longer be seduced by any lying novelty!'

    "Therefore we have firmly decided to continue our work of restoring the Catholic priesthood no matter what happens, persuaded that we can render no greater service to the Church, to the Pope, to the bishops and to the faithful. May they let us to test or experience (as they say) Tradition."

    Quote
    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Écône, August 2, 1976.

    SOME BOLDING ADDED THAT IS NOT IN ORIGINAL

    https://www.fsspx.com/Communicantes/Oct2002/Servile_Obedience.htm

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #52 on: January 12, 2020, 09:20:58 PM »
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  • Thank you for a breath of fresh air and some sanity.  ByzCat is also a sedeplenist, and he too concluded, from reading the actual evidence, that the Archbishop in fact wavered.  At the end of the day, I don't really care what position someone takes ... just be honest about it and sincere, for crying out loud.  Just say, "I don't agree with when Archbishop Lefebvre said those things about sedevacantism," and we're done.  But that those who say he did are lying or fabricating quotations, etc., even after we provided links?  That borders on insanity.  Or, if you want to make a rational argument that, "well, that's what he said, but he really mean ..." (based on some rational evidence rather than wishful thinking), that's fine too.
    OK I will freely admit I didn't read every quote, and I'm tired right now so I could definitely have missed something.  But I have yet to see a post where Lefebvre was *for* Sedevacantism.  Again, I could be wrong about that, but I've never seen it.

    However, I've seen him say things like "The Church might some day say these men aren't Popes."  Honestly, I hear this sort of thing all the time.  I've even occasionally seen Novus Ordo Catholics admit that its a remote possibility.  But technically in normal times, you aren't actually supposed to think this.  Objectively speaking doubting the pontificate of Pius XI, say, would be grave matter.

    I'm still confused on this topic, though.  Because its undeniable that +Lefebvre thought Sedevacantism was at least an outside possibility, and sometimes a serious one to consider (though I've never at any point heard him even say it is most probable, let alone definite.)  However, I'm much less persuaded by the "universal consent" arguments.  It seems to me that the MAJORITY of true Catholics at least do consider the pre Francis popes to be unquestionably true Popes.  Francis is indeed a unique wildcard in the sense that I know even many Novus Ordos deny him.  but when you're talking about say John Paul II, if you go with Ladislaus' definition of what is a true Catholic (ie. someone who accepts every dogma of which they are aware, I think) the majority of those are still gonna be Novus Ordo, even though the majority of Novus Ordo are NOT going to be true Catholics due to cafeteria cherry picking.  In other words based on Ladislaus' definition, about 95% of Novus Ordos aren't true Catholics, but most of the true Catholics in the world still do come from that 5% of Novus Ordo.

    Now perhaps you could argue that while most Catholics do accept the Pre Francis NO popes without question, the fact that the highest quality Catholics (Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson probably for most here) have serious doubts is sufficient to say that the matter is really in doubt.  Mind epistemically that seems like a hard sell, but on the other hand ,there's no way I think Lefebvre is in Hell for doubting something that at least seems understandable to doubt.

    All that being said, one big point I disagree with Ladislaus on, I think.  I see a *big* difference between the position that says "OK I'm not *completely* sure, but it seems like he's pope so I'm gonna kinda do the R + R thing, while accepting that MAYBE, PERHAPS the Church will rule that he isn't really a Pope later on" and taking the kind of SSPV "Well MAYBE He's a real pope, but we're practically gonna act like he isn't, and not give him any submission at all" type view.  

    In the end I guess my take is, I think the safest option is a sedeplenist leaning position.  I see no reasonable world in which Go would send us to Hell for admitting that we aren't 100% sure what's going on, but we give the authority the benefit of the doubt.

    I think either trying to declare the seat definitely (or even probably) vacant is pretty dangerous.  That said I'm far from *persuaded* that Sedeplenism is dogma and denial is heresy.  Maybe it is, but even if it is, I think there's grace for those who err in good faith and have some doubt due to the confusion.


    Offline donkath

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #53 on: January 12, 2020, 09:30:55 PM »
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  • Quote
    The reason I posted Fr. Hewko's video is the reasoning and prudence Archbishop Lefebve exhibited in not declaring the See of Peter vacant.


    It was what the Archbishop chose not to do that counts.  His example.  Whether he speculated about the possibility of sedevacatism is irrelevant to his final decision.

    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #54 on: January 13, 2020, 05:45:30 AM »
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  • If the leadership of the SSPX were to join the forum and push their wrong view of +ABL, then they would likely be banned. But not the sedes, even though they are just as guilty as the leadership of the SSPX, when it comes to falsifying the work of +ABL. Why is that, I wonder? I mean, why are the sedes allowed to prevail with their false view of +ABL?
    Meg, I understand your thoughts exactly, yet what better way to correct error than to have actual debates on the subject?
     
    This is where I have come to really admire Matthew's and Mater's way of moderating. IMO, they were / are well ahead of the curve, I certainly could not do it like them and I do not know of anyone else who could - or has.

    For me, the purpose of having these debates at all, which will rarely or likely will never achieve it's intended purpose of converting the one(s) being debated, is for the benefit of those lurkers and others who are confused about this situation.  

    We enter these debates with the knowledge that the idea(s) we are fighting against are, to quote +ABL: "...liberal ideas [which] have been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the Church..."   They not only will never believe that their ideas are liberal ideas infiltrated into all the manifestations of the Church, rather, many of them believe their errors are actually beliefs which are taught, or otherwise tolerated by the Church, in other words, many of them believe their liberal ideas are actually doctrines of the Church. Therein is the reason for these debates.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #55 on: January 13, 2020, 05:56:17 AM »
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  • Stubborn,  I am not a sede.  I understand that jorge bergoglio is not the pope, and POPE BENEDICT XVI is the pope.
    In the article I posted, here " ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE TRUTH and Sedevacantism" are any of the quotes of the Archbishop within the article not the correct quotes of Archbishop LeFebvre?
    If so, please point them out.
    Thank you.
    I do not claim any of the quotes are incorrect, but based on his life, his preachings and how he ran his SSPX, it is plain to me that they are taken entirely out of context.

    Would a Ford executive who has been known to say a few times that GM has a nice vehicle, say that in order to promote or support General Motors? 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline 54rosary

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #56 on: January 13, 2020, 10:51:56 AM »
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  • I do not claim any of the quotes are incorrect, but based on his life, his preachings and how he ran his SSPX, it is plain to me that they are taken entirely out of context.

    Would a Ford executive who has been known to say a few times that GM has a nice vehicle, say that in order to promote or support General Motors?
    Thank you for explaining your position.  It is greatly appreciated.