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Author Topic: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism  (Read 4788 times)

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Offline 54rosary

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Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2020, 03:11:13 PM »
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  • It's definitely, as you say, a syndrome. I'll further define it as a derangement syndrome.

    I mean, why are the sedes allowed to prevail with their false view of +ABL?
    Mrs. 54Rosary speaking:
    Meg or anyone else,  I was wondering if you could point out any of the quotes that are incorrect from Archbishop Lefebvre on our posted article ''ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE TRUTH and Sedevacantism".
    I want you to know that anyone who calls me a sede or sedewhatever is incorrect.  I understand that jorge bergoglio is not the pope and POPE BENEDICT XVI is the pope.
    Also, your words toward those who are other Catholics are very hostile to the point of being not of the Catholic spirit.
    To love your enemies is the way that Jesus wants you to be.
    I am reading "The Mystical City of God'' of Venerable Mary of Agreda, volume 1, and it was said by THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY that we are "wormlets".  Now this is hard to hear for me and possibly for you as well as for others.  BUT it is true and I believe what the MOTHER OF GOD and our Mother wants us to know so that we can face this TRUTH and do something about it such as repent, make reparations, or pray for others, etc.
    GOD BLESS YOU, MEG. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #31 on: January 12, 2020, 03:21:11 PM »
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  • I absolutely do doubt anything you say, Ladislaus. If you can't provide provable citation for what you've written, then I have to assume that you're lying.

    For the third time now, Meg, these quotes were compiled by John Daly.  I provided the link in a previous post, but here it is in case you missed it the first time.
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

    It has nothing to do with whether I am lying.

    For a mere $2.50 (plus shipping and handling), you can get the Angelus issue cited here --
    https://angeluspress.org/products/angelus-jul-1986

    Be my guest.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #32 on: January 12, 2020, 03:24:58 PM »
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  • Mrs. 54Rosary speaking:
    Meg or anyone else,  I was wondering if you could point out any of the quotes that are incorrect from Archbishop Lefebvre on our posted article ''ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE TRUTH and Sedevacantism".
    I want you to know that anyone who calls me a sede or sedewhatever is incorrect.  I understand that jorge bergoglio is not the pope and POPE BENEDICT XVI is the pope.
    Also, your words toward those who are other Catholics are very hostile to the point of being not of the Catholic spirit.
    To love your enemies is the way that Jesus wants you to be.
    I am reading "The Mystical City of God'' of Venerable Mary of Agreda, volume 1, and it was said by THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY that we are "wormlets".  Now this is hard to hear for me and possibly for you as well as for others.  BUT it is true and I believe what the MOTHER OF GOD and our Mother wants us to know so that we can face this TRUTH and do something about it such as repent, make reparations, or pray for others, etc.
    GOD BLESS YOU, MEG.

    Meg appears to have a very deep-seeded psychological problem with sedevacantism.  You too may feel her wrath, because she lumps all positions other than her own into the "sede-whateverist" category.  Your Benedict=Pope position has been called "sedebendictantism" (partly tongue and cheek since it's fake Latin), so she might consider you a "sede" as well.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #33 on: January 12, 2020, 03:31:19 PM »
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  • For the third time now, Meg, these quotes were compiled by John Daly.  I provided the link in a previous post, but here it is in case you missed it the first time.
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

    It has nothing to do with whether I am lying.

    For a mere $2.50 (plus shipping and handling), you can get the Angelus issue cited here --
    https://angeluspress.org/products/angelus-jul-1986

    Be my guest.
    You must have missed my post where I posted the link to the actual words from July 1986 edition on The Angelus website.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #34 on: January 12, 2020, 03:34:41 PM »
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  • For a mere $2.50 (plus shipping and handling), you can get the Angelus issue cited here --
    https://angeluspress.org/products/angelus-jul-1986

    In fact, all of these are from that same issue:


    Quote
    “You know, for some time, many people, the sedevacantists, have been saying, ‘there is no more pope’. But I think that for me it was not yet the time to say that, because it was not sure, it was not evident…” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    “…these recent acts of the Pope and bishops, with protestants, Animists and Jews, are they not an active participation in non-catholic worship as explained by Canon Naz on Canon 1258§1? In which case I cannot see how it is possible to say that the pope is not suspect of heresy, and if he continues, he is a heretic, a public heretic. That is the teaching of the Church.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    It is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope. For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    “I don’t know if the time has come to say that the pope is a heretic (…) Perhaps after this famous meeting of Assisi, perhaps we must say that the pope is a heretic, is apostate. Now I don’t wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a pope to be formally and publicly heretical. (…) So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    “Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #35 on: January 12, 2020, 03:35:48 PM »
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  • You must have missed my post where I posted the link to the actual words from July 1986 edition on The Angelus website.

    Yes, I missed that.  Or, rather, I responded to her post before I saw that you had cited it right it.  I tend to respond to posts as soon as I see them, rather than reading to the end first.  Sorry.  Perhaps she requires a hard copy for final verification though.

    I'm actually surprised that the SSPX hasn't purged this from their website.

    Offline 54rosary

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #36 on: January 12, 2020, 03:41:43 PM »
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  • Quote
    Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.
    The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.
    Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.
    There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.
    Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.
    Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.
    Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.
    (Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi [London: R. Washbourne, 1882], pp. 248-250; underlining and paragraph breaks added.)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #37 on: January 12, 2020, 04:03:44 PM »
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  • Most people recognized that I was thereby expressing my contempt for YOU ... "great" was put in quotes because YOU had used the word in an argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy.  But I should expected subtleties like that to sail over your head.  Everyone else on the thread got it.
    Nice try again: 
    QVD suggested that "out" for you, but it makes no sense.

    Please explain how calling into question Alphonsus's "great"ness by placing that descriptor in parenthesis is an attack on me.

    It could be one way: 

    Sometimes you can insult a man by offending his woman.

    In which case, you were insulting St. Alphonsus's greatness to get at me?

    That is worse than the first.

    Why not just admit you don't like Alphonsus because he trashes your Feeneyism, and also your Joneism?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #38 on: January 12, 2020, 04:15:31 PM »
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  • Did the Archbishop ever condemn sedevacantists as schismatics/non-Catholics/outside the Catholic Church?  If not, how can the dogmatic R&R's like Sean Johnson say they follow him?
    Here is Archbishop Lefebvre saying sedevacantism is schismatic:

    Archbishop Lefebvre:

    "You know that some people, and, uh, I must say that some priests were with us, and they tried to lead us into schism.

    "And they say there is no pope, no pope now, no cardinals, no bishops, no Catholic Church.

    "We are the Catholic Church.

    "I don't say that.

    "I don't accept that.

    "That is schism.

    "If we abandon Rome; if we abandon the pope, the successor of St. Peter, where are we going?

    "Where?

    "Where is the authority of the Church?

    "Where is our leader in the Church?

    "We can't know where we are going.

    "If the pope is weak; if he don't do his duty; it's not good.

    "We must pray for this pope.

    "But don't say that he is not the pope."


    There follows a lengthy dissertation on the case of Paul resisting St. Peter, as well as the condemnation of Pope Honorious, whom the Archbishop also noted never lost the papacy.
    It was given by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre on May 10, 1983.

    It is available from STAS audio for $5 (and the CD also includes other ABL English language sermons from 11-6-1977 and 4-19-1986).


    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/archbishop-lefebvre-confirmation-sermon/15/
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #39 on: January 12, 2020, 04:19:07 PM »
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  • It is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope. For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    “I don’t know if the time has come to say that the pope is a heretic (…) Perhaps after this famous meeting of Assisi, perhaps we must say that the pope is a heretic, is apostate. Now I don’t wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a pope to be formally and publicly heretical. (…) So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)
    You're kidding, right?
    THIS is Archbishop Lefebvre being a "hair's breadth" away from going sede??
    To any reasonable reader, it is nothing more than Lefebvre opening the door a crack to the **posssibility** of sedevacantism.
    A "hair's breadth" from endorsing that opinion might be something like calling a General Chapter meeting to reconsider the official orientation of the SSPX with regard to the Pope, or, a letter expressing firm and certain private convictions (not possibilities) that the pope is not the pope.
    Those would be "hair's breadths" away.
    What you have provided doesn't come within a mile of Lefebvre going sede.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #40 on: January 12, 2020, 04:20:53 PM »
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  • I've wondered this myself.  +Lefebvre was clearly at least tolerant of (if not at times very sympathetic with) sedevacantism.  If Johnson gratuitously asserts that my assertion is gratuitous, I could easily dig up a couple dozen quotes to demonstrate this.
    Notice Lad changing up his answers ex post facto again:
    Earlier, the Archbishop was a "hair's breadth away" from going sede.
    But now, he just wants to provide quotes showing he was merely open, at certain points, to the possibility (which is not being disputed, at least by me).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #41 on: January 12, 2020, 04:27:01 PM »
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  • No, this was not MY position.  This was the consensus opinion among the moral theologians of Jone's time.  I was merely defending them against your slanders.  Nor did the reasoning have anything to do with "means to an end".  You show yourself more of an ignoramus with every post.
    Completely gratuitous and factually false.
    Can you come up with another approved pre-conciliar moralist who opines marital sodomy is parvity of matter?  I gave you Merkelbach (which as far as I am aware is the only other one I can come up with who endorsed this view).
    Notice that Jone and Merkelback are lightweights and obscure compared to their opponents (Alphonsus, Aquinas, Augustine, etc).
    And I will deal with the fact that you have falsified St. Alphonsus's opinion that he said it is permissible to follow any approved opinion later (For now, I just note this was prior to 1769, when he was still probabilist, as you are today).
    He rejected that view, and pioneered the aequiprobabilist position, for which he is famous (and which condemns the idea that you can follow any single opinion, even when it is solidly in the less probable camp).
    This is very nearly laxism.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #42 on: January 12, 2020, 04:57:48 PM »
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  • Here is Archbishop Lefebvre saying sedevacantism is schismatic:

    Archbishop Lefebvre:

    "You know that some people, and, uh, I must say that some priests were with us, and they tried to lead us into schism.

    "And they say there is no pope, no pope now, no cardinals, no bishops, no Catholic Church.

    "We are the Catholic Church.

    "I don't say that.

    "I don't accept that.

    "That is schism.

    "If we abandon Rome; if we abandon the pope, the successor of St. Peter, where are we going?

    "Where?

    "Where is the authority of the Church?

    "Where is our leader in the Church?

    "We can't know where we are going.

    "If the pope is weak; if he don't do his duty; it's not good.

    "We must pray for this pope.

    "But don't say that he is not the pope."


    There follows a lengthy dissertation on the case of Paul resisting St. Peter, as well as the condemnation of Pope Honorious, whom the Archbishop also noted never lost the papacy.
    It was given by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre on May 10, 1983.

    It is available from STAS audio for $5 (and the CD also includes other ABL English language sermons from 11-6-1977 and 4-19-1986).


    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/archbishop-lefebvre-confirmation-sermon/15/
    But, given his comments in 1986 (verified in the link above), it appears that this was no longer what he believed.  

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #43 on: January 12, 2020, 04:58:24 PM »
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  • Completely gratuitous and factually false.
    Can you come up with another approved pre-conciliar moralist who opines marital sodomy is parvity of matter?  I gave you Merkelbach (which as far as I am aware is the only other one I can come up with who endorsed this view).
    Notice that Jone and Merkelback are lightweights and obscure compared to their opponents (Alphonsus, Aquinas, Augustine, etc).
    And I will deal with the fact that you have falsified St. Alphonsus's opinion that he said it is permissible to follow any approved opinion later (For now, I just note this was prior to 1769, when he was still probabilist, as you are today).
    He rejected that view, and pioneered the aequiprobabilist position, for which he is famous (and which condemns the idea that you can follow any single opinion, even when it is solidly in the less probable camp).
    This is very nearly laxism.
    .
    Sir, this is a Wendy's drive-thru.
    .

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Quotes of Archbishop Lefebvre - Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #44 on: January 12, 2020, 05:37:40 PM »
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  • For the third time now, Meg, these quotes were compiled by John Daly.  I provided the link in a previous post, but here it is in case you missed it the first time.
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

    It has nothing to do with whether I am lying.

    For a mere $2.50 (plus shipping and handling), you can get the Angelus issue cited here --
    https://angeluspress.org/products/angelus-jul-1986

    Be my guest.

    So a sede site is your source. Isn't that convenient.

    I'm not going to order anything. You can't prove your assertion. As usual. You are not honest. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29