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Author Topic: Questions on the Sacraments  (Read 4269 times)

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Offline Gustinau

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Questions on the Sacraments
« on: December 11, 2025, 03:48:37 AM »
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  • So I'm relatively new to being a Catholic, and was Baptized and Confirmed in a Novus Ordo parish. Would someone be willing to explain in detail - or link something which explains - the issues with ordination and what effect that would have for my Baptism/Confirmation? A quick search here didn't turn up much in terms of detail, and my other searches elsewhere got conflicting answers.
    I have no idea what I'm doing.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #1 on: December 11, 2025, 04:51:36 AM »
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  • So I'm relatively new to being a Catholic, and was Baptized and Confirmed in a Novus Ordo parish. Would someone be willing to explain in detail - or link something which explains - the issues with ordination and what effect that would have for my Baptism/Confirmation? A quick search here didn't turn up much in terms of detail, and my other searches elsewhere got conflicting answers.
    It is actually quite simple, about 1968, Pope Paul VI revised all of the sacraments after the Second Vatican Council to the point that there is every reason to consider he rendered them all doubtful, although many believe they are all positively invalid, this of course, includes the new rite of ordination. Invalid ordination = invalid priests = invalid sacraments. I think this short snip from Who Shall Ascend? (pdf attached) explains the situation.....  

    "They cannot argue that their new formulas are identical to the old; that would be to admit that the changes mean nothing, and that, therefore, there was no reason to make them. To admit that they made changes for no reason whatsoever would be a sign of a most irreverent capriciousness and cynicism. Besides, such an explanation could only be regarded as a concealment. The new forms (Latin and English) must be seen to say something different from the old. Furthermore, in view of what the other changes in the liturgical rites have connoted, we are compelled to be suspicious.

    We should rather say, we have every reason to look for an effort at neuterizing this sacramental rite, because those in charge of the new rites have shown themselves untrustworthy, or, more accurately, determinedly subversive. The new form could not be an improvement on the old. How can one method or set of words ordain someone better than another? The alteration of the form can only have had the intention of either negating this purpose, or, at the very least, of creating a doubt as to its efficacy. (As if it needs to be said: They could not have added something to the form by taking words away. And what could they have wanted to add to the power of Orders? Why did they touch the form at all?)" 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Gustinau

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #2 on: December 11, 2025, 05:58:33 AM »
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  • So effectively there would be no priest 'in the person of Christ' to perform the Baptism / Confirmation and it would be the same as a layman saying the words. I'd hoped the Baptism would still be fine at least. Follow up question while I read the pdf then, which churches do have validly ordained priests?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #3 on: December 11, 2025, 06:20:42 AM »
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  • So effectively there would be no priest 'in the person of Christ' to perform the Baptism / Confirmation and it would be the same as a layman saying the words. I'd hoped the Baptism would still be fine at least. Follow up question while I read the pdf then, which churches do have validly ordained priests?
    Well, yes, the baptism would be valid as long as the proper words were said while pouring the water. 
    Catholic Candle has listed trad priests they believe are valid or not.
    You can google Latin Mass locations,you'll get plenty of locations. I would avoid the Indults though.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gustinau

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #4 on: December 11, 2025, 06:43:33 AM »
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  • Well, yes, the baptism would be valid as long as the proper words were said while pouring the water.
    Catholic Candle has listed trad priests they believe are valid or not.
    You can google Latin Mass locations,you'll get plenty of locations. I would avoid the Indults though.
    If I recall correctly the formula was "I Baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." while pouring water on the head. Not forehead I think, but baldness would have guaranteed skin contact.

    Can you elaborate on the Indult Masses, there's a church that does both Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass on different days, I'm assuming that counts as one. Also what about the Eastern rites? Would their priesthood be valid or did the changes reach to their Sacraments?
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #5 on: December 11, 2025, 06:59:27 AM »
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  • If I recall correctly the formula was "I Baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." while pouring water on the head. Not forehead I think, but baldness would have guaranteed skin contact.
    On the top of the head is valid as long as the water actually flows on the skin. IIRC even a single bead of water flowing on the skin of the head suffices for valid baptism.
    So on the top of the head is only a problem if the hair is thick enough to prevent the water from flowing on the skin.

    If you do not have video evidence of your baptism in the NO, there is no harm in being conditionally baptised.  Basically all traditional priests would be willing to administer one, and would recommend it. Many instances of NO baptisms being invalid due to the administer botching the formula
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #6 on: December 11, 2025, 07:06:58 AM »
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  • If I recall correctly the formula was "I Baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." while pouring water on the head. Not forehead I think, but baldness would have guaranteed skin contact.

    Can you elaborate on the Indult Masses, there's a church that does both Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass on different days, I'm assuming that counts as one. Also what about the Eastern rites? Would their priesthood be valid or did the changes reach to their Sacraments?
    Yes, seems to me your baptism was valid, but as WA said let a trad priest conditionally baptize you.
    There are numerous reasons to avoid the Indult, but mainly we don't go because their priests are ordained in the new rite by new rite bishops = doubtful validity. If per chance you go to a valid priest, the hosts they can use for communion could the ones   left over from the previous NO mass = doubtful validity. 

    I am happily ignorant about the Eastern Rites. I am sure someone else will chime in for that one.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gustinau

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #7 on: December 11, 2025, 07:23:02 AM »
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  • Alright, thank you for your help. :smirk:
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    Online Freind

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #8 on: December 11, 2025, 11:18:17 AM »
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  • If you do not have video evidence of your baptism in the NO, there is no harm in being conditionally baptised.  Basically all traditional priests would be willing to administer one, and would recommend it. Many instances of NO baptisms being invalid due to the administer botching the formula

    Unfortunately, this isn't true. There are a good portion of traditional priests who do not doubt Novus Ordo baptisms. It's a real problem. And they are very touchy about the subject because of the implications in regard to ordinations, which would in turn be doubtful if performed on a doubtfully baptized candidate.

    Online SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #9 on: December 11, 2025, 11:47:26 AM »
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  • There are a good portion of traditional priests who do not doubt Novus Ordo baptisms. It's a real problem.

    This is more of an R&R problem.

    I have never seen priests who consider the See vacant having issue with it.

    Some just have to do their"investigation" first so they can check the box that they looked into it. 

    But I have not come across anyone who positively would NOT administer it.

    I am not a Sanobornite, but his system is the best for seminarians (without proof positive = conditionals are warranted) As far as I know he has always practiced this.

    CMRI is hit or miss with young men going to his seminary who came from the Novus Ordo - it basically falls to whatever +Privunas thinks.

    SSPV will do them for laity if asked, after their "investigation" but those "investigations" could never turn up much anyway (why trust the Modernists to have done it correctly).

    It is with the R&R that is problem mainly resides, especially with those who left the Novus Ordo, joined an R&R group, and then went on to seminary w/o any conditional baptism.

    At this point there could be hundreds of their priests running around with doubtful baptisms and therefore doubtful Holy Orders.

    So the dogmatic R&R slam the Thucline and self-boast that they have the "true priests", but give it another couple decades and most of them will be just as doubtful as they have made the Thucline out to be, maybe more so...

    I thought you were embarrassed and ashamed of this forum and were quitting?

    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #10 on: December 11, 2025, 12:56:01 PM »
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  • This is more of an R&R problem.

    I have never seen priests who consider the See vacant having issue with it.

    Some just have to do their"investigation" first so they can check the box that they looked into it.

    But I have not come across anyone who positively would NOT administer it.

    I am not a Sanobornite, but his system is the best for seminarians (without proof positive = conditionals are warranted) As far as I know he has always practiced this.

    CMRI is hit or miss with young men going to his seminary who came from the Novus Ordo - it basically falls to whatever +Privunas thinks.

    SSPV will do them for laity if asked, after their "investigation" but those "investigations" could never turn up much anyway (why trust the Modernists to have done it correctly).

    It is with the R&R that is problem mainly resides, especially with those who left the Novus Ordo, joined an R&R group, and then went on to seminary w/o any conditional baptism.

    At this point there could be hundreds of their priests running around with doubtful baptisms and therefore doubtful Holy Orders.

    So the dogmatic R&R slam the Thucline and self-boast that they have the "true priests", but give it another couple decades and most of them will be just as doubtful as they have made the Thucline out to be, maybe more so...

    I thought you were embarrassed and ashamed of this forum and were quitting?
    Affirm or deny:

    Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecuмenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic and Pope Leo II ratified that condemnation.
    Vive les bons prêtres !


    Online SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #11 on: December 11, 2025, 01:12:08 PM »
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  • Affirm or deny:

    Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecuмenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic and Pope Leo II ratified that condemnation.
    Already answered on the other thread, waiting for your reply on what you think of the "CatholicTrumpet"...

    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #12 on: December 11, 2025, 01:36:00 PM »
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  • Already answered on the other thread, waiting for your reply on what you think of the "CatholicTrumpet"...
    “To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!“

    In Session XVI of the Sixth Ecuмenical Council (680–681), Honorius I was formally labeled a “heretic”, alongside other Monothelite leaders, yet he remained pope until his death. The council’s acclamation reads verbatim:

    “To Theodore of Pharan, the heretic, anathema!
    To Sergius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Cyrus, the heretic, anathema!
    To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Pyrrhus, the heretic, anathema!
    To Paul, the heretic, anathema!
    To Peter, the heretic, anathema!
    To Macarius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Stephen, the heretic, anathema!
    To Polychronius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Apergius of Perga, the heretic, anathema!
    To all heretics, anathema!
    To all who side with heretics, anathema!”

    — Nicene and Post‑Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XIV: The Sixth Ecuмenical Council, Session XVI

    The council language itself used the word “heretic” in association with his name.

    The dogmatic decree itself (as recorded in Mansi, Sacrorum Conciliorum, Tomus XI, cols. 635‑637) also states:

    “…Honorius, qui fuit Papa antiquae Romae… haeretico anathema…”

    English: “…Honorius, who was Pope of Old Rome… anathema to the heretic…”

    The Council repeatedly identified Honorius as a heretic, both in the acclamations of the bishops and in the formal dogmatic decree.


    Vive les bons prêtres !

    Online Angelus

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #13 on: December 11, 2025, 02:27:17 PM »
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  • So I'm relatively new to being a Catholic, and was Baptized and Confirmed in a Novus Ordo parish. Would someone be willing to explain in detail - or link something which explains - the issues with ordination and what effect that would have for my Baptism/Confirmation? A quick search here didn't turn up much in terms of detail, and my other searches elsewhere got conflicting answers.

    It would be safer to just find a priest who will do it conditionally. But if you have video evidence, then all they would need to do with provide the Supplying Ceremonies. Those ceremonies include, most importantly, the Exorcisms. At least have that done, no matter what else you decide.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q71.A2

    I answer that, Whoever purposes to do a work wisely, first removes the obstacles to his work; hence it is written (Jer 4:3): Break up anew your fallow ground and sow not upon thorns. Now the devil is the enemy of man’s salvation, which man acquires by Baptism; and he has a certain power over man from the very fact that the latter is subject to original, or even actual, sin. Consequently it is fitting that before Baptism the demons should be cast out by exorcisms, lest they impede man’s salvation. Which expulsion is signified by the breathing; while the blessing, with the imposition of hands, bars the way against the return of him who was cast out. Then the salt which is put in the mouth, and the anointing of the nose and ears with spittle, signify the receiving of doctrine, as to the ears; consent thereto as to the nose; and confession thereof, as to the mouth. And the anointing with oil signifies man’s ability to fight against the demons.


    Online Freind

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    Re: Questions on the Sacraments
    « Reply #14 on: December 11, 2025, 05:40:48 PM »
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  • This is more of an R&R problem.

    I have never seen priests who consider the See vacant having issue with it.

    Some just have to do their"investigation" first so they can check the box that they looked into it.

    But I have not come across anyone who positively would NOT administer it.

    I am not a Sanobornite, but his system is the best for seminarians (without proof positive = conditionals are warranted) As far as I know he has always practiced this.

    CMRI is hit or miss with young men going to his seminary who came from the Novus Ordo - it basically falls to whatever +Privunas thinks.

    SSPV will do them for laity if asked, after their "investigation" but those "investigations" could never turn up much anyway (why trust the Modernists to have done it correctly).

    It is with the R&R that is problem mainly resides, especially with those who left the Novus Ordo, joined an R&R group, and then went on to seminary w/o any conditional baptism.

    At this point there could be hundreds of their priests running around with doubtful baptisms and therefore doubtful Holy Orders.

    So the dogmatic R&R slam the Thucline and self-boast that they have the "true priests", but give it another couple decades and most of them will be just as doubtful as they have made the Thucline out to be, maybe more so...

    I thought you were embarrassed and ashamed of this forum and were quitting?

    I have been heavy on this subject for many years. The SSPX/R&R basically accept Novus Ordo baptisms by default.

    Bp. Sanborn does conditionals before about 1990. This is a SERIOUS problem for his seminary.

    The CMRI don't even have a policy. I have heard a CMRI priest from the pulpit plainly say Novus Ordo baptisms are valid. A serious problem for their seminary.

    The SSPV have it the best - doubt the validity of Novus Ordo baptisms by default. If a video shows it is valid, then accept it.

    It is embarrassing here, but that doesn't mean everyone here.