I am noticing some Traditional Catholics who are holding steadfast to the faith are wondering how bad apostasy in the Traditional Catholic Church will get before God has had enough. They know the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church of Christ but are pointing out Christ did not say how bad the condition of the Church will become and how few people in the church will be  in a state of grace when he returns.

Every day we notice something to prove to ourselves that apostasy within the Church is much more widespread than many of us thought.  It appears a high provability that severe persecution of us Traditional Catholics by many groups of people will soon become reality in the United States. It is beginning to look like severe persecution of Traditional Catholics will even come from many people who call themselves  Traditional Catholic & attend  the Latin Mass but who still refuse to believe 100% in  infallible doctrine of the Catholic Church and also neglect to live in a state of grace.

How much worse do you believe the condition of apostasy within the Church will become before the second coming of Christ?



HOLY BIBLE Gospel According to Saint Matthew 16:16-20

[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [20] Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

HOLY BIBLE Gospel According to Saint Luke 18:6-10

[6] And the Lord said: Hear what the unjust judge saith. [7] And will not God revenge his elect who cry to him day and night: and will he have patience in their regard? [8] I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh,  shall he find, think you, faith on earth? [9] And to some who trusted in themselves as just, and despised others, he spoke also this parable: [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

It is beginning to look like severe persecution of Traditional Catholics will even come from many people who call themselves  Traditional Catholic & attend  the Latin Mass but who still refuse to believe 100% in  infallible doctrine of the Catholic Church...

MyrnaM, I would pay no heed to this person as it looks like this individual insinuates that we who believe in the doctrines of Baptism of Desire and Blood do not believe "100% in the infallible doctrine of the Catholic Church".

This is evident from an earlier post by this individual:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Heathens-Make-Message-Board-Rule-Exceptions-for-Traditional-Catholics

Here was the title of my thread.

Quote

There is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church . Refuting Baptism of Desire.

Note well, "Refuting Baptism of Desire".

NO, it most certainly does not!

Feeneyites get it all wrong. They are overly simplistic, they want everything to make perfect sense to their average-IQ brain. When you're dealing with God and His works, good luck with that! St. Thomas Aquinas with his powerful and deep intellect might come a lot closer than most -- but Joe Sixpack can forget it!

If Feeneyism were the "traditional Catholic" position on Baptism of Desire, it wouldn't be called Feeneyism!

For the good-willed people in the bleachers, here's the Catholic teaching on Baptism of Desire:

God can dispense His grace to whom He wills. God calls all men to salvation, but He doesn't give the same grace to all. Some are born to pagan families, others to staunchly Catholic ones. How is that fair? We can't look into the mind of God. God is far above us, and much concerning Him is a mystery which we must humbly learn to live with.

Catholic doctrine also states that all men in Hell are there *of their own fault*. They chose themselves; they said "NO" to God, echoing as it were the "Non Serviam!" of Lucifer. Each damned soul knows that it was just for God to send him there. At some point during his life, he failed the test and chose himself over God -- just like plenty of Catholics do! God, in His infinite wisdom, knows the best time to cut off each life, and when to stop sending His grace. He is merciful even in His justice -- He doesn't want a soul heading for Hell to be guilty of even more sins, and thus suffer greater pains for all eternity. Remember that God (alone) knows the contingent future -- the results of each free-will choice. The angels and devils are really good guessers, being so highly intelligent and experienced, but they can never KNOW IN ADVANCE what we will choose with our Free Will.

So there are probably souls here and there who have not been baptised, but would be saved if they died today.

How does it follow from this that "Missionaries might as well stay home!"?

Let's see, how about the fact that pagan societies are inimical to the development of virtue. There are countless obstacles in the way of salvation even in a country like America with Catholic churches and priests all over the place, or even a Catholic country like France back in the heydey of Christendom -- how much more difficult would it be in a pagan society where there is no "safe haven" for one's Faith? And is it not of vital importance to receive the Sacraments -- with the attendant graces attached to them -- to help us reach salvation? And which of us doesn't need the guidance of holy priests to direct our ship of our soul to its port? As the wise saying goes, "A man who is his own spiritual director is the disciple of a fool."

That is why Our Lord commanded His apostles to go out into the whole world, baptising and making disciples of all nations. He also said:

(John chapter 4)
[35] Do you not say, There are yet four months, and then the harvest cometh? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes, and see the countries; for they are white already to harvest. [36] And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting: that both he that soweth, and he that reapeth, may rejoice together. [37] For in this is the saying true: That it is one man that soweth, and it is another that reapeth. [38] I have sent you to reap that in which you did not labour: others have laboured, and you have entered into their labours.

We have countless stories in Church history about pagan peoples who embraced the Gospel with both hands, and lived like the early Christians after their conversion. So it is quite reasonable that some unbaptised persons could be faithful to God, in the small graces He has sent to them so far.

Lastly, the worn-out charge that "Baptism of Desire empties out all the value of water Baptism, missionary work, etc.." is ridiculous and has been disproven by historical fact. For centuries, the traditional Catholic doctrine on Baptism of Desire (which I have laid out in this post) was held, and yet there was never a shortage of priests or missionaries ready to give up their lives to save souls. So much for that charge.

Matthew

All right, so the purpose of the missionaries is to teach Christian virtues and doctrines, which creates that "internal union" with the Church that St. Robert Bellarmine talks about. This "internal union" is of the heart and soul and is therefore more important (and more necessary) than the "external union" which exists through Baptism and reception of the other Sacraments. OK, fine. That makes sense.

This is part of the problem. The purpose of the missionary activity of the Chuch is to incorporate all men into Her internally and externally. It is not to create some kind of "internal union" minus the "external union."

So, SJB, is some kind of Baptism absolutely necessary?

Nice try. The problem is that after all the proper distinctions are made, you want to simplify it and destroy all the distinctions. You are here only to argue your beliefs. Goodbye.

Quote from: SJT

All right, so the purpose of the missionaries is to teach Christian virtues and doctrines, which creates that "internal union" with the Church that St. Robert Bellarmine talks about. This "internal union" is of the heart and soul and is therefore more important (and more necessary) than the "external union" which exists through Baptism and reception of the other Sacraments. OK, fine. That makes sense.

This is part of the problem. The purpose of the missionary activity of the Chuch is to incorporate all men into Her internally and externally. It is not to create some kind of "internal union" minus the "external union."

Missionaries *have* to emphasize the external union as well as the internal, if they want to do their job and save their own souls.

One major problem today -- the exaggeration of the truth of Baptism of Desire has resulted in modern priests leaving "good people" to "be as they are" because they don't think being part of the Catholic Church is important.

As always, truth can be exaggerated by excess or defect.

And, as always, the Feeneyites must have SOMETHING to go on or the error would have been stillborn.

What the Feeneyites have "to go on" is the fact that Baptism IS the ordinary means of salvation, and that membership in the Catholic Church is not "up to you".

God is not limited by His ordinary means. Just like He has been pleased to give Communion to certain saints in a miraculous manner, or sustain certain saints without the aid of normal food. God is free.

We might like to simplify God so that we can better understand Him, but then what you have is not God at all, but a crude distortion, like the god of the Muslims.

Matthew

De Feeneyismo
(in iambic pentameter)


The Feeneyites think all of those who died,
unbaptized, will be sent to Hell, and fried!

The simple-minded really ought to know
the grace of God is more than H-2-0!

What if a pagan never sees a priest?
What’s in his soul, you don’t know in the least!

For God can give his grace to whom He will:
He need not use a liquid or a pill.

Of course there are the ordinary means;
(The truth is not at opposite extreme)

For Baptism is not an option clicked,
like something in a menu that is picked!

But if you have been baptized, be aware:
the obligations in your face do stare!

Though countless men have all been baptized well,
You never know who you could meet in Hell!

If Feeneyism were the "traditional Catholic" position on Baptism of Desire, it wouldn't be called Feeneyism!

Sorry Matthew this is not a good argument. In fact it actually works in favor of us "Feeneyites."

I will illustrate with an example statement using the same logic:  

"If they were really traditional Catholics they wouldn't be called  L-e-f-e-b-v-e-r-i-t-e-s."    


(I am sure you would not accept this as a valid argument against the SSPX, but it uses the same logic as your argument against "Feeneyism.")



A common tactic is to label the enemy because then you don't have to refute his arguments.


(I see you even have that derogatory term for SSPX supporter, auto-censored on your forum, I just want to use it in an example, this is NOT an insult.  Please do not ban me as you are welcome on my forum as I hope I would be welcome here.)