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Offline rowsofvoices9

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Questionable Holy Orders
« on: September 04, 2012, 06:39:48 PM »
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  • We all know that the Church has been infiltrated by Freemasons and Communists.  

    If a man presented himself for ordination to the priesthood and the presiding bishop was secretly a Freemason with no intention of doing what the Church does when conferring Sacramental Orders, in reality that man would not be a priest at all.

    The following scenario is too horrible to contemplate as regards the salvation of souls but, it is highly feasible that this very situation has occurred more often than we care to admit.  It takes no stretch of the imagination to assume that a Freemasonic bishop has no intention of doing what the Church does since the chief aim of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is to destroy the Catholic Church.

    Supposing a man was under the mistaken assumption that he had valid Holy Orders and was faithfull in fulfilling all his priestly duties believing in good conscience that that he was truly a priest.  My question regards the impact this would have on the very salvation of souls that have been entrusted to his care.  We all know that he would never be able to confect the Holy Eucharist but what about the other sacraments (excluding baptism)?  I'm thinking specifically about the sacrament of confession.  If a penitent was sincere and made a good confession would God in this case supply the required absolution since neither the penitent nor the pretend priest has any clue that no true sacrament was effected?  I note that in sacred scripture Jesus would often say to a sinner, your faith has saved you, go and sin no more.  I imagine that in this instance God in His great mercy would without question forgive the sinner since this unfortunate circuмstance is beyond the control of both parties.   Does anyone know if the Church has an official teaching on this topic?

    All the following quotes I took from:
    http://bishopjosephmarie.org/doctrine/wolvesamongthesheep.html#9end

    Minimum Requirements for Valid Consecration to the Episcopacy

    For a valid consecration to take place, surprising little is required:

    1. The consecrating bishop must use the proper matter and form, accompanied by the proper intention.
    2.  The recipient being consecrated must be a validly baptized male and a validly ordained priest, and have the proper intention.
    3.  There must be a validly consecrated bishop bestowing the Sacrament.

    They [Freemasons] declare repeatedly that Christ is either a scandal or foolish; indeed, not rarely, that there is no God, and they teach that the soul of man dies together with the body: the codes and statutes, by which they explain their goals and ordinances openly declare that all the things which We have already mentioned, and which pertain to the overthrowing of Legitimate Rulers and totally destroying the Church come forth from them. And this has been ascertained and must be considered as certain, that these sects, although in name different, nevertheless have been joined among themselves by an impious bond of filthy goals.” (Quo Graviora – Apostolic Constitution of Pope Leo XII, March 13, 1826)

    Those secret societies of factious men who, completely opposed to God and to princes, are wholly dedicated to bringing about the fall of the Church, the destruction of kingdoms, and disorder in the whole world…Their law is untruth: their god is the devil and their cult is turpitude… Our predecessors, Clement XII, Benedict XIV, Pius VII, Leo XII, repeatedly condemned with anathema that kind of secret society…” (Traditi Humilitati - Encyclical of Pope Pius VIII ,May 24, 1829)

    Such that they profane and defile the passion of Jesus Christ by certain of their impious ceremonies, that they despise the Sacraments of the Church (for which they seem to substitute other new things invented by themselves through their supreme wickedness) and despise the very mysteries of the Catholic Religion and that they overthrow this Apostolic See against which, because on it the Sovereignty of the Apostolic Chair has always flourished, (S. Aug. Epist. 43.) they are roused by a certain unparalleled hate and they devise every dangerous destructive plot." (Constitution of Pope Pius VII – Ecclesiam a Jesu Christo – 9/13/1821)

    "They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom… Their chief dogmas are so greatly and manifestly at variance with reason that nothing can be more perverse.  To wish to destroy the religion and the Church which God Himself has established... their ultimate purpose forces itself into view – namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced... and now the time has come when the partisans of the sects openly declare, what in secret among themselves they have for a long time plotted, that the sacred power of the Pontiffs must be abolished, and that the papacy itself, founded by divine right, must be utterly destroyed. If other proofs were wanting, this fact would be sufficiently disclosed by the testimony of men well informed, of whom some at other times, and others again recently, have declared it to be true of the Freemasons that they especially desire to assail the Church with irreconcilable hostility, and that they will never rest until they have destroyed whatever the supreme Pontiffs have established for the sake of religion." (Humanum Genus, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, 4/20/1884)
     
    The defenders of this external intention supposition rely on a false premise, based principally upon the misapplication of Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Apostolicae Curae9 against the validity of Anglican Orders, which causes them to embrace a highly improbable scholastic theory which states that the “external intention” alone is sufficient for sacramental validity.

    In support of their position, they often quote a certain portion of this encyclical which states that: “A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do what the Church does.” But in presenting this sentence out of the context of the paragraph which contained it, they either naively or deceptively distort the whole of what Pope Leo XIII taught. Here is the paragraph in its entirety:

    “With this inherent defect of 'form' is joined the defect of 'intention' which is equally essential to the Sacrament.  The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it.   A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.”

    “According to the almost general opinion of modern theologians, an inner intention is necessary for the valid administration of the Sacraments… The mere external intention is not compatible with the concept of doing what the Church intends, or with the status of the minister as a servant of Christ, or with the religious determination of the sacramental sign…” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, 1955)

    “The Church teaches very unequivocally that for the valid conferring of the sacraments, the minister must have the intention of doing at least what the Church does. This is laid down with great emphasis by the Council of Trent. (Sess. VII). The opinion once defended by such theologians as Catharinus and Salmeron (theologians at Trent) that there need only be the intention to perform deliberately the external rite proper to each sacrament, and that, as long as this was true, the interior dissent of the minister from the mind of the Church would not invalidate the sacrament, no longer finds adherents. The common doctrine now is that a real internal intention to act as a minister of Christ, or to do what Christ instituted the sacraments to effect… is required… Whatever may be said speculatively about the opinion of Ambrosius Catharinus who advocated the sufficiency of an external intention in the minister, it may not be followed in practice, because, outside of cases of necessity, no one may follow a probable opinion against one that is safer, when there is question of something required for the validity of a sacrament.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, p. 69)

    This necessary internal intention is further confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas:

    “I answer that, The minister’s intention may be perverted in two ways. First in regard to the Sacrament: for instance, when a man does not intend to confer a Sacrament, but to make a mockery of it. Such a perverse intention takes away the truth of the Sacrament, especially if it be manifested outwardly.” (Summa Theologica, 3rd, 64, 10.)

    And by St. Alphonsus:

    “For the validity of the Sacraments there is required in the minister neither faith nor probity, but rather power (and jurisdiction in some Sacraments), as well as the intention or will, at least virtual and absolute, or the equivalent of this, of doing, not that external act only, but that Sacrament, or at least of doing what the Church does or what Christ instituted… the confection of a Sacrament requires such an intention which determines the action to be sacramental, and which removes the indifference of the words and actions; but an intention only of doing the external action, which could be referred to other ends, is not such an intention.   Thus the Council of Trent defined that a “Sacrament” performed in jest would be invalid, contrary to Luther.” (Theologia Moralis: Bk. 6, Pt. 1 - emphasis supplied)

    The Church’s Teaching Regarding Doubtful Sacraments

    We turn to St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori, who is a Doctor of the Catholic Church and the Patron Saint of Confessors, Theologians and Moralists. One of the greatest among his 111 written works is his book on moral theology (Theologica Moralis). Here he reiterated the Church’s teaching in determining sacramental validity in cases of doubt.9a It is given at some length so as to enable the reader to grasp the full import of this important doctrine of the Church which is so applicable to our situation today:

    • ne must take note of the different species of probability: for one opinion may be barely probable, another probable, another more probable, another most probable, another morally certain, another safe, another safer. An opinion is barely probable which depends on some foundation, but not such that would prevail upon a prudent man to assent to it; but this kind of opinion we are unable to use. That is probable, which rests on a grave foundation, either intrinsically of


    reason or extrinsically of authority, such that it would prevail upon a prudent man to assent to it, although with respect for the opposite opinion. That is more probable (or highly probable), which rests on a more grave foundation, but also with prudent respect for the opposite, such that the contrary may also be thought to be probable. That is most probable, which rests on a most grave foundation, such that the opposite is thought to be barely or doubtfully probable; we may always licitly use such an opinion. An opinion is morally certain, which excludes all prudent fear of error, such that the opposite is reputed as altogether improbable.  Finally, an opinion is safe, which recedes from every danger of sinning. But that is safer (or very safe), which recedes greatly from such danger, even if it does not rely on firmer reasons.”

    “Thence it should be noted that there is a probability of fact and another of law. A probability of fact is that which revolves around the truth of a thing, or the substance of a thing, such as whether in a Sacrament,  the use of such matter would be valid or invalid…”

    “This established, it is never lawful to use a probable opinion with the probability of fact when there is danger of harm to another or to oneself; because this kind of probability by no means removes the danger of harm: for if the opinion is false, harm to one’s neighbor or to the one acting will not be evaded. For example, baptism attempted using saliva is truly invalid, so that an infant would remain unbaptized; probability in the opposite opinion is certainly unable to effect its validity. Hence:

    1. It is not licit, in a matter of faith and in everything which appears to be a necessary means of eternal salvation,  to follow a less probable opinion (as was ineptly said in Prop. 4, proscribed [condemned] by Innocent XI) nor a more probable one; rather we are bound to follow the safer opinion…”
    4. In the administration of the Sacraments, a minister may use neither a probable opinion nor a more probable opinion concerning their validity, but is bound to follow a safe opinion; that is, one that is either very safe or morally certain."

    “Therefore, it must always be said, that it is never licit to use a probable opinion with the probability of fact, where there is danger of harm or injury to one’s neighbor.”10 (Theologica Moralis, Book 1, Chapter 3, Of Probable Conscience).
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline Elizabeth

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    Questionable Holy Orders
    « Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 10:49:46 AM »
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  • Mario Derksen debunked this rubbish  spewing out of SSPV completely.

    The SSPV Cult clergy who perpetrate this fraud have SERIOUS skeletons in their own closet.  They are a cult with big money backers, preying on people with good intentions. But they imitate precisely Freemasons.  

    Don't take my word for it-arrange an interview with Bishop Kelly or Bishop Santay.  :laugh1:


    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    Questionable Holy Orders
    « Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 12:00:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Mario Derksen debunked this rubbish  spewing out of SSPV completely.

    The SSPV Cult clergy who perpetrate this fraud have SERIOUS skeletons in their own closet.  They are a cult with big money backers, preying on people with good intentions. But they imitate precisely Freemasons.  

    Don't take my word for it-arrange an interview with Bishop Kelly or Bishop Santay.  :laugh1:


    Elizabeth, I'm not questioning the validity of anyone's Holy Orders.  My question was sincere, is there any official Church teaching on this?  This is a very serious matter and the possibility of it happening is very real.  As the article pointed out, what better way for Satan to try to destroy God Church than by destroying Holy Orders.  
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    Questionable Holy Orders
    « Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 12:55:35 PM »
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  • Okay, so far I've been able to ascertain that in order to be conscrated a bishop the candidate must have been a validly ordained priest for a minimum of five years.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_(Catholic_Church)

    Quote
    Canon 378 §1 requires that a candidate for the episcopacy should be:

    1.  outstanding in solid faith, good morals, piety, zeal for souls, wisdom, prudence, and human virtues, and endowed with other qualities which make him suitable to fulfill the office in question;

    2.  of good reputation;

    3.  at least thirty-five years old;

    4.  ordained to the presbyterate for at least five years;

    5.  in possession of a doctorate or at least a licentiate in sacred scripture, theology, or canon law from an institute of higher studies approved by the Apostolic See, or at least truly expert in the same disciplines.


    Furthermore:

    http://www.hrcac.org.uk/society-news.html

    Quote
    1.            S. Woywood, Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law (New York: Wagner 1952), 1905. “A sacred order is presumed valid until its invalidity is established by proof to the effect that it was received with want of intention on the part of the petitioner. He must show that something essential was lacking when the sacrament was conferred.”

    2.            P. Gasparri, Tractatus de Sacra Ordinatione (Paris: Delhomme 1893), 1:970. “Canonist Gasparri (later a Cardinal and compiler of the 1917 Code of Canon Law) offers a general principle: “…an act, especially one as solemn as an ordination, must be regarded as valid, as long as invalidity would not be clearly demonstrated.”…tum quia actus, praesertim adeo solemnis qualis est ordinatio, habendus est ut validus, donec invaliditas non evincatur.”

    3.            A priest or Bishop who confers a sacrament doesn’t have to “prove” that he intends to do what the Church does. He is automatically presumed to intend what the rite means. This is certain theological doctrine, taught by the Church. And to deny it is “theologically rash” B. Leeming, Principles of Sacramental Theology (Westminster md: Newman 1956), 482. “This principle is affirmed as certain theological doctrine, taught by the Church, to deny which would be theologically rash… the minister is presumed to intend what the rite means..”

    4.            Pope Leo XIII specifically confirmed the principle with regard to Holy Orders when he said that someone who seriously and correctly uses the matter and form “is for that very reason deemed to have intended to do what the Church does”, Bull Apostolicae Curae, 13 September 1896. “Iamvero quum quis ad sacramentum conficiendum et conferendum materiam formamque debitam serio ac rite adhibuit, eo ipso censetur id nimirum facere intendisse quod facit Ecclesia.”

    5.            A Bishop who confers Holy Orders is never presumed to have the intention of not ordaining someone as long as the contrary is not proved. For no one should be presumed to be evil, he adds, unless he is proven as such -Tractatus de Sacra Ordinatione, 1:970. “Proinde numquam praesumitur ministrum talem intentionem non ordinandi habuisse in ordinatione peragenda, donec contrarium non probetur; tum quia nemo praesumitur malus, nisi probetur…” His emphasis.

    6.            Theologian Coronata, “is certainly present in someone who regularly performs sacramental actions.” The mere act of putting on vestments and going to the altar is considered sufficient evidence for virtual intention. Conte a Coronata, De Sacramentis: Tractatus Canonicus (Turin: Marietti 1943) 1:56. “Virtualis enim intentio, ut iam vidimus, est intentio ipsa actualis quae cuм distractione operatur. Talis intentio certe habetur in eo qui de more ponit actiones sacramentales.

    7.            Recipient of the sacrament for challenges, his diocesan ordinary, and the ordinary of the diocese where the sacrament was conferred. See Canon 1994.1. “Validitatem sacrae ordinationis accusare valet clericus peraeque ac Ordinarius cui clericus subsit vel in cuius diocesi ordinatus sit.” All other person lack the right to accuse, See Cappello 4:683. “Aliae personae extraneae procul dubio jure accusandi carent.”

    8.            A consecration without any assistants and without obtaining a pontifical dispensation, it would still be valid. S. Many, Praelectiones de Sacra Ordinatione (Paris: Letouzey 1905), 519. “Alexander VII, brevi Onerosa, 4 Feb. 1664, concessit ut aliqua episcopalis ordinatio, apud Sinas, fieret ab uno tantum episcopo, cuм assistentia duorum presbyterorum, et etiam, si opus esset, sine illorum assistentia.”

    9.            Pope Alexander VII, Brief Alias, 27 February 1660. “Quantum spectat ad sacramentum et impressionem characteris fuisse validam.” Pope Clement XI and Pope Benedict XIV declared that consecrations performed without such a dispensation are valid De Synodo Diocesana 13.13.9-10. “…consecrationem hujusmodi validam, licet illicitam, esse censuerunt… ratam firmamque, sed illicitam Consecrationem pronuntiavit.” Pope Benedict’s emphasis, quoting Pope Clement’s decree of 26 November 1718.

    10.          The Catholic faith that the valid administration of a sacrament does not depend on a priests or Bishops probity. Cappello, 1:36. “In ministro non requiritur nec status gratiae, nec vitae probitas, imo nec ipsa fides, ad validam sacramentorum confectionem vel administrationem. Haec est veritas catholica de fide.”

    11.          Pope Leo XIII answers clearly and with solemn authority: Concerning the mind or intention, in as much as it is in itself something internal, the Church does not pass judgment; but in so far as it is externally manifested, she is bound to judge of it. Now, if in order to effect and confer a Sacrament a person has seriously and correctly used the due matter and form, he is for that very reason presumed to have intended to do what the Church does. It is on this principle that the doctrine is solidly founded which holds as a true Sacrament that which is conferred by the ministry of a heretic or of a non-baptized person, as long as it is conferred in the Catholic rite.  

    12.          St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says the same thing (III, Q. 64, A. 8 ad 2): In the words uttered by (the minister), the intention of the Church is expressed; and this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, EXCEPT THE CONTRARY BE EXPRESSED EXTERIORLY on the part of the minister [emphasis given by author]. Therefore, in the conferral of the sacrament of holy orders (or of any other) as long as the ordaining Bishop, be he Catholic or apostate, observes externally the rite prescribed for the sacrament, he MUST be presumed to have the right intention, and the sacrament MUST be accepted as valid. Let us recall one more time that there is not the least question of the possibility of receiving valid ordinations from a Bishop who has abandoned the faith. In fact, such ordinations received from heretics or others are normally valid.

    13.          In defining this truth of faith, Pope Paschal II does not add the least qualification, not even an implicit reference to cases where such ordinations might not be valid: therefore, instructed by the examples of our Fathers, who at diverse times have received Novatians, Donatists, and other heretics in their orders [i.e., acknowledging the validity of the orders which they had received in their heretical sects]: We receive in the episcopal office [i.e., as valid Bishops] the Bishops of the aforesaid kingdom, who were ordained in schism... October 22, 1106.  

    14.          Let us consider momentarily a few more points on the intention required in the minister of a sacrament. We shall distinguish the intention of doing what the Church does, and the intention of doing what the Church intends. The Church does (performs) a sacred rite instituted by Christ, and by this rite she intends to confer grace —and in some sacraments, the character. The minister does not at all need to intend to confer grace by the rite which he performs. It suffices that he intend to perform a sacred rite. (So teach all theologians.) Indeed, he does not even have to believe that the rite which he is performing is sacred. It suffices that he intends to perform seriously a rite which Christians hold as sacred. Thus, for example, a Jєω can validly baptize a Christian child, even though he believes that baptism is a completely meaningless ceremony, if he intends to perform a rite which Christians hold to be sacred. Thus, also a priest who has lost the faith in the Sacraments can still confect them validly as long as he has the intention of performing seriously the rites which the faithful ask of him and which they consider sacred.

    15.          St. Thomas teaches the same thing (in IV Sent., dist. 6, Q. 1 A. 3, sol 2, ad 1): Sometimes he [the minister] intends to do what the Church does, although he considers it to be nothing. The minimum intention required in the minister of a sacrament is, then, this: That he intends to perform a rite which the Church considers sacred and to accomplish seriously all the prescribed externals. Indeed, who could possibly lack this minimal intention in administering a sacrament? We have seen that the Church considers the presence of the required intention the normal case as regards sacraments administered by heretics, schismatics, etc. It is almost impossible for a sacerdotal (Priestly) ordination to be invalid, an invalid episcopal consecration would be even more impossible for this reason: In accordance with the most ancient tradition of the Church, a new Bishop is always consecrated by THREE other Bishops. The Pontificale Romanum refers them as assistentes, but since, as the rubrics prescribe, all three Bishops impose hands on the Bishop-elect (the matter of the sacrament), and recite the form of consecration.

    16.          Pope Pius XII (Episcopalis consecrationis, Nov. 30, 1944) insists that they are to be referred to as co-consecrators. Thus, as this was already obvious, all three concur in the consecration (where only one would suffice for validity), and, therefore, even in the unimaginable case where two of the three Bishops would lack the necessary intention, the remaining Bishop would still validly consecrate the elect (Cf. also Pius XII, Allocution to the International Congress of Pastoral Liturgy, Sep. 22, 1956).

    17.          Consecrations without Papal Mandate: leads us to consider the precedent found in ecclesiastical history for the consecration of Bishops during the time of interregnum (the vacancy of the Apostolic See). On November 29, 1268, Pope Clement IV died, and there began one of the longest periods of interregnum or vacancy of the papal office in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. The Cardinals at that time were to assemble in conclave in the city of Viterbo, but through the intrigues of Carlo d’Anglio, King of Naples, discord was sown among the members of the Sacred College and the prospect of any election grew more and more remote. After almost three years, the Mayor of Viterbo enclosed the Cardinals in a palace, allowing them only strict living rations, until a decision would be made which would give to the Church its visible Head. At last, on September 1, 1271, Pope Gregory X was elected to the Chair of St Peter. During this long period of vacancy of the Apostolic See, vacancies also occurred in many dioceses throughout the world. In order that the priests and faithful might not be left without shepherds, Bishops were elected and consecrated to fill the vacant Sees. There were accomplished during this time twenty-one known elections and consecrations in various countries. The most important aspect of this historical precedent is that all of these consecrations of Bishops were ratified by Pope Gregory X, who consequently affirmed the lawfulness of such consecrations.” There is on 9 separate other occasions that a Pope did not sit on the Chair of St Peter’s throne for a record between 2 to 4 years. However consecrations of hundreds of Bishops took place. Yet there was no Papal Mandate issued for their consecrations. (Information taken from Vatican Archives) And yet their consecrations remain valid and licit.

    18.          Pope Leo XIII answers clearly and with solemn authority: concerning the mind or intention, inasmuch as it is in itself something internal, the Church does not pass judgment; but in so far as it is externally manifested, she is bound to judge of it. Now, if in order to effect and confer a Sacrament a person has seriously and correctly used the due matter and form, he is for that very reason presumed to have intended to do what the Church does. It is on this principle that the doctrine is solidly founded which holds as a true Sacrament that which is conferred by the ministry of a heretic or of a non-baptized person, as long as it is conferred in the Catholic rite.

    19.          St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says the same thing (III, Q. 64, A. 8 ad 2): In the words uttered by (the minister), the intention of the Church is expressed; and this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, EXCEPT THE CONTRARY BE EXPRESSED EXTERIORLY on the part of the minister [emphasis given by author]. Therefore, in the conferral of the sacrament of holy orders (or of any other) as long as the ordaining bishop, be he Catholic or apostate, observes externally the rite prescribed for the sacrament, he MUST be presumed to have the right intention, and the sacrament MUST be accepted as valid. Let us recall one more time that there is not the least question of the possibility of receiving valid ordinations from a bishop who has abandoned the faith. In fact, such ordinations received from heretics or others are normally valid.

    20.          In defining this truth of faith, Pope Paschal II does not add the least qualification, not even an implicit reference to cases where such ordinations might not be valid: Therefore, instructed by the examples of our Fathers, who at diverse times have received Novatians, Donatists, and other heretics in their orders [i.e., acknowledging the validity of the orders which they had received in their heretical sects]: We receive in the episcopal office [i.e., as valid bishops] the bishops of the aforesaid kingdom, who were ordained in schism... October 22, 1106.

    21.          Let us consider momentarily a few more points on the intention required in the minister of a sacrament. We shall distinguish the intention of doing what the Church does, and the intention of doing what the Church intends. The Church does (performs) a sacred rite instituted by Christ, and by this rite she intends to confer grace —and in some sacraments, the character. The minister does not at all need to intend to confer grace by the rite which he performs. It suffices that he intends to perform a sacred rite. (So teach all theologians.)  Indeed, he does not even have to believe that the rite which he is performing is sacred. It suffices that he intends to perform seriously a rite which Christians hold as sacred. Thus, for example, a Jєω can validly baptize a Christian child, even though he believes that baptism is a completely meaningless ceremony, if he intends to perform a rite which Christians hold to be sacred. Thus, also a priest who has lost the faith in the Sacraments can still confect them validly as long as he has the intention of performing seriously the rites which the faithful ask of him and which they consider sacred.  

    22.          St. Thomas teaches the same thing (in IV Sent., dist. 6, Q. 1 A. 3, sol 2, ad 1): Sometimes he [the minister] intends to do what the Church does, although he considers it to be nothing. The minimum intention required in the minister of a sacrament is, then, this: That he intends to perform a rite which the Church considers sacred and to accomplish seriously all the prescribed externals. Indeed, who could possibly lack this minimal intention in administering a sacrament? We have seen that the Church considers the presence of the required intention the normal case as regards sacraments administered by heretics, schismatics, etc.

    23.          It is almost impossible for a sacerdotal (Priestly) ordination to be invalid, an invalid episcopal consecration would be even more impossible for this reason: In accordance with the most ancient tradition of the Church, a new bishop is always consecrated by THREE other bishops.

    The Pontificale Romanum refers them as assistentes, but since, as the rubrics prescribe, all three bishops impose hands on the bishop-elect (the matter of the sacrament), and recite the form of consecration, Pope Pius XII (Episcopalis consecrationis, Nov. 30, 1944) insists that they are to be referred to as co-consecrators. Thus, as this was already obvious, all three concur in the consecration (where only one would suffice for validity), and, therefore, even in the unimaginable case where two of the three bishops would lack the necessary intention, the remaining bishop would still validly consecrate the elect. (Cf. also Pius XII, Allocution to the International Congress of Pastoral Liturgy, Sep. 22, 1956.)

    Pope Leo XIII answers clearly and with solemn authority: "Concerning the mind or intention, inasmuch as it is in itself something internal, the Church does not pass judgment; but in so far as it is externally manifested, she is bound to judge of it. Now, if in order to effect and confer a Sacrament a person has seriously and correctly used the due matter and form, he is for that very reason presumed to have intended to do what the Church does. It is on this principle that the doctrine is solidly founded which holds as a true Sacrament that which is conferred by the ministry of a heretic or of a non-baptized person, as long as it is conferred in the Catholic rite."

    Saint Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says the same thing: "In the words uttered by the minister, the intention of the Church is expressed; and this suffices for the validity of the Sacrament, EXCEPT THE CONTRARY BE EXPRESSED EXTERIORLY on the part of the minister"  Therefore, in the conferral of the Sacrament of Holy Orders or of any other as long as the ordaining bishop, be he Catholic or apostate, observes externally the rite prescribed for the Sacrament, he MUST be presumed to have the right intention, and the Sacrament MUST be accepted as valid. Let us recall one more time that there is not the least question of the possibility of receiving valid ordinations from a bishop who has abandoned the faith. In fact, such ordinations received from heretics or others are normally valid. In defining this truth of faith, "

    Pope Paschal II does not add the least qualification, not even an implicit reference to cases where such ordinations might not be valid: Therefore, instructed by the examples of our Fathers, who at diverse times have received Novatians, Donatists, and other heretics in their orders [i.e., acknowledging the validity of the orders which they had received in their heretical sects]: We receive in the Episcopal office [i.e., as valid bishops] the bishops of the aforesaid kingdom, who were ordained in schism ..." October 22, 1106.  

    Let us consider momentarily a few more points on the intention required in the minister of a Sacrament. We shall distinguish the intention of doing what the Church does, and the intention of doing what the Church intends. The Church does (performs) a sacred rite instituted by Christ, and by this rite she intends to confer grace —and in some Sacraments, the character. The minister does not at all need to intend to confer grace by the rite which he performs. It suffices that he intends to perform a sacred rite. (So teach all theologians.) Indeed, he does not even have to believe that the rite which he is performing is sacred. It suffices that he intends to perform seriously a rite which Christians hold as sacred. Thus, for example, a Jєω can validly baptize a Christian child, even though he believes that Baptism is a completely meaningless ceremony, if he intends to perform a rite which Christians hold to be sacred. Thus, also a priest who has lost the faith in the Sacraments can still confect them validly as long as he has the intention of performing seriously the rites which the faithful ask of him and which they consider sacred.

    Saint Thomas teaches the same: "Sometimes the minister intends to do what the Church does, although he considers it to be nothing."The minimum intention required in the minister of a Sacrament is, then, this: That he intends to perform a rite which the Church considers sacred and to accomplish seriously all the prescribed externals. Indeed, who could possibly lack this minimal intention in administering a Sacrament? We have seen that the Church considers the presence of the required intention the normal case as regards Sacraments administered by heretics, schismatic’s, etc.

    According to the solemn teaching of the Church, therefore, and the conclusions of sound theology, there is ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION for any doubts on the validity of the Holy Orders of the Most Reverend Dom. Carlos Duarte Costa and the Most Reverend Dom. Castillo Mendez. In our case as valid Catholic Bishops consecrated by the Most Reverend Dom. Castillo Mendez who in turn consecrate fellow Bishops. Upon Examination of Canon Laws:  

    St. Thomas Aquinas states; laws are ordinances of right reason made for the common good promulgated by one who has authority in society. A fundamental principle of law is that “Law ceases automatically:

    1. if through changed conditions, it has become harmful, impossible or irrational;

    2. if its very purpose has ceased to be verified for the whole community” (Moral Theology, Ff. Henry Davis, 1958).

    Due to the false teachings of Bishop Meini. His Eminence, Archbishop David Bell has found it necessary to Decree the Bishop an Anathema as permitted by the Sacred Council of Trent:

    DECRETO di Anathema contro il Vescovo Mario Meini

    E 'con grande dolore che scriviamo presente decreto di anatema, ma dopo aver molto pensato e pregato, e aver riflettuto di essere un vescovo cattolico di pietà, prudenza e umiltà e agli insegnamenti dei nostri antenati e l'antica chiesa è ad oggi la lettura di una dichiarazione alla stampa dell vescovo Mario Meini, Vescovo di Feisole, Italia del 18 maggio 2012, con la sua dichiarazione rilasciata dichiarando la mia vocazione e della mia Ordinαzιone, non essere valida. Siamo con il presente decreto secondo il Consiglio Sacra di Trento nella sessione ventitreesima. Canoni e Decreti del Consiglio di essere la settima sotto il Sommo Pontefice Pio IV., Ha celebrato il quindicesimo giorno del mese di luglio, 1563. Decretiamo Anatema, che Dio perdoni i sui errori.

    Canon I. Se uno deve dire, che non c'è nel Nuovo Testamento un sacerdozio visibile ed esterno: o che non vi è alcun potere di consacrare e di offrire il vero corpo e sangue del Signore, e del remittente e peccati di sostegno, ma solo un ufficio e il ministero nudo di predicare il Vangelo, o che coloro che non predicano non sono sacerdoti a tutti; sia anatema.

    Canon II. Se uno deve dire, che, oltre il sacerdozio, non ci sono gli ordini religiosi cattolici in altra chiesa, sia maggiore o minore, con il quale, come per certi passi, prima è stato fatto per il sacerdozio, sia anatema.

    Canon III. Se uno deve dire, che gli ordini, o la sacra ordinαzιone, non è veramente e propriamente un sacramento istituito da Cristo Signore, oppure che si tratta di una finzione certa umana  ideato da uomini inesperti in materia ecclesiastica, oppure, che è solo un certo tipo per la scelta di ministri della parola di Dio e dei sacramenti, sia anatema.

    Canon IV. Se uno deve dire che, dalla sacra ordinαzιone lo Spirito Santo non viene dato, e che i vescovi lo dicono dunque invano, "Ricevete lo Spirito Santo", oppure che un personaggio non viene quindi impressa, oppure che chi ha tempo stato un sacerdote, può tornare ad essere un laico, sia anatema.

    Canon V. Se uno deve dire, che la sacra unzione che la Chiesa si avvale nell'ordinαzιone sacra, non solo non è necessaria, ma deve essere disprezzata ed è perniciosa, come anche le altre cerimonie dell'Ordine, lascia che sia un anatema.

    Canon VII. Se uno deve dire, che i vescovi non sono superiori ai sacerdoti, oppure, che non hanno il potere di confermare e di ordinare, o, che tale potere di cui godono è comune ad esse con i sacerdoti, oppure, che gli ordini, conferito dal loro, senza il consenso o vocazione del popolo, o del potere secolare, non sono validi, oppure, che coloro che non hanno né stato giustamente ordinato, né ha inviato, dal potere ecclesiastico e canonico, ma provengono da altrove, sono ministri legittimi del parola e dei sacramenti, sia anatema.


    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    « Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 01:59:02 PM »
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  • I for one find it very comforting that the possibility of invalidity of priestly holy orders is pretty near impossible.
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 02:49:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: RowsofVoices
    Supposing a man was under the mistaken assumption that he had valid Holy Orders and was faithfull in fulfilling all his priestly duties believing in good conscience that that he was truly a priest.  My question regards the impact this would have on the very salvation of souls that have been entrusted to his care.  We all know that he would never be able to confect the Holy Eucharist but what about the other sacraments (excluding baptism)?

     I'm thinking specifically about the sacrament of confession.  If a penitent was sincere and made a good confession would God in this case supply the required absolution since neither the penitent nor the pretend priest has any clue that no true sacrament was effected?  I note that in sacred scripture Jesus would often say to a sinner, your faith has saved you, go and sin no more.  I imagine that in this instance God in His great mercy would without question forgive the sinner since this unfortunate circuмstance is beyond the control of both parties.  Does anyone know if the Church has an official teaching on this topic?


    No, in such a hypothetical case, the layman who is thought to be a priest would be entirely unable to forgive sins, just as unable to consecrate the Eucharist, for both are priestly powers, anymore than a Protestant minister who desired to would be able to.

    However, if the penitent has perfect contrition and given that, by the very fact of going to confession he has intended to confess his sins, he would be restored to grace. Ordinarily, because of the work of the sacrament, attrition suffices during confession, and absolution is received by the words of the priest and is efficacious by the blood of Christ but since here there is no sacrament, perfect contrition would be absolutely necessary, and the layman ministering to the penitent would make no contribution.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 03:25:23 PM »
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  • In the absence of valid holy orders, we always have prayer.

    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    « Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 06:29:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Quote from: RowsofVoices
    Supposing a man was under the mistaken assumption that he had valid Holy Orders and was faithfull in fulfilling all his priestly duties believing in good conscience that that he was truly a priest.  My question regards the impact this would have on the very salvation of souls that have been entrusted to his care.  We all know that he would never be able to confect the Holy Eucharist but what about the other sacraments (excluding baptism)?

     I'm thinking specifically about the sacrament of confession.  If a penitent was sincere and made a good confession would God in this case supply the required absolution since neither the penitent nor the pretend priest has any clue that no true sacrament was effected?  I note that in sacred scripture Jesus would often say to a sinner, your faith has saved you, go and sin no more.  I imagine that in this instance God in His great mercy would without question forgive the sinner since this unfortunate circuмstance is beyond the control of both parties.  Does anyone know if the Church has an official teaching on this topic?


    No, in such a hypothetical case, the layman who is thought to be a priest would be entirely unable to forgive sins, just as unable to consecrate the Eucharist, for both are priestly powers, anymore than a Protestant minister who desired to would be able to.

    However, if the penitent has perfect contrition and given that, by the very fact of going to confession he has intended to confess his sins, he would be restored to grace. Ordinarily, because of the work of the sacrament, attrition suffices during confession, and absolution is received by the words of the priest and is efficacious by the blood of Christ but since here there is no sacrament, perfect contrition would be absolutely necessary, and the layman ministering to the penitent would make no contribution.


    Just a thought, although I can never persume to know the mind of God, somehow is seems unjust that God would demand perfect contrition from the penitent in a case such as this.  Neither the supposed priest or the penitent are to blame.  Both would be acting in good faith.  However as I said, I really don't know.  Hopefully, if this has ever happened, the penitent had recourse to a validly ordained priest for confession afterwards so that all the sins previously confessed would be absolved.
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 06:53:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: rowsofvoices9

    Just a thought, although I can never persume to know the mind of God, somehow is seems unjust that God would demand perfect contrition from the penitent in a case such as this.  Neither the supposed priest or the penitent are to blame.  Both would be acting in good faith.  However as I said, I really don't know.  Hopefully, if this has ever happened, the penitent had recourse to a validly ordained priest for confession afterwards so that all the sins previously confessed would be absolved.


    It's best not to dwell on those thoughts, Rows.  God allowed, no He ordered the massacre of all Midianites, including the women and children (allowing a small portion to join the Israelites) in the Book of Numbers chapter 31 (That's Parshas Mattos for you, Sigismund).  

    He also flooded the entire world in Noah's time, saving only Noah and his family, and they had to build the ark themselves.

    He allowed the Temple to be smashed - TWICE!

    He allowed the Arian heresy.

    He allowed the protestant reformation and that event in all likelihood consigned tens of millions of souls to Hell.

    He allowed the French Revolution!

    He allows over a million abortions every single year.

    So, merely allowing valid bishops and priests to disappear from the world really is a pretty ordinary event.  Self-induced ѕυιcιdє, in all practicality.  And more a punishment directed toward us than a reflection of anything else.

    This thread brings up a pretty important topic.  What if there are no longer any valid priests or bishops?  

    If Cardinal Lienart's membership in the Masons is enough to disqualify ABL, then what about the complete rewrite of the consecration of bishops and the theological reoientation of the Catholic Church (once seeing itself AS the body of Christ and now, post-Paul VI, seeing the body of Christ subsisting in the Catholic Church and all the other churches too).  

    It's a real bummer.  However, it's also a possibility.  

    However, I am curious as to whether or not Cardinal Lienart was officially a mason and whether this information was always known and released by aparatchiks in the Vatican.  How long did they know this cardinal was a mason?

    And what about the new mass which was manufactured by Bugnini who most likely was a mason along with six protestant theologians (who are lower than the gum stuck to the bottom of a mason's shoe)?  

    And to think that this entire fiasco is self-induced because God allowed John XXIII and Paul VI to become popes!!!  We can't get sore at God!  He blessed His Holy Church with Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI and Pius XII all in a row!  Five of those guys could easily be considered SUPER-Popes!

    One final consoling note is that whether the Cardinal was actually a mason or not, he was a secret mason and, to anybody's knowledge, he did not make a public oath before first ordaining and then consecrating ABL.  What would be the ruling on this?    

    Offline Elizabeth

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    « Reply #9 on: September 06, 2012, 09:11:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: rowsofvoices9


      Hopefully, if this has ever happened, the penitent had recourse to a validly ordained priest for confession afterwards so that all the sins previously confessed would be absolved.


     Confessions are really important.  I am not sure if Epikia covers all trad Confessions, but would be grateful to be corrected.

     In almost any diocese there will be old retired priests who are certainly validly ordained.  If there is lingering doubt and worry about whether Confessions were OK, I'd make an appointment with one of the really old ones for a General Confession.  Most of them would be glad to help anyone in such need; many have been virtually discarded and have had time to reflect on their life in the Novus Ordo.  

    It would take some planning but it would be worth it if there is substantial doubt.  Although as time goes by, they are dying and after a while there wont be old priests ordained before 1968 or whenever the revolution happened in his particular part of the world.

    In Confession, it is always good to remember to tell the priest at the end "For these sins and for all my past sins and any I may have forgotten, I am truly sorry."  (and really mean it)

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #10 on: September 06, 2012, 11:28:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Mario Derksen debunked this rubbish  spewing out of SSPV completely.

    The SSPV Cult clergy who perpetrate this fraud have SERIOUS skeletons in their own closet.  They are a cult with big money backers, preying on people with good intentions. But they imitate precisely Freemasons.  

    Don't take my word for it-arrange an interview with Bishop Kelly or Bishop Santay.  :laugh1:


    I see you've fallen off the wagon again.




    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Elizabeth

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    « Reply #11 on: September 06, 2012, 11:57:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB

    I see you've fallen off the wagon again.



    Report me to the SSPV  
     :jester:

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #12 on: September 06, 2012, 12:04:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Quote from: SJB

    I see you've fallen off the wagon again.



    Report me to the SSPV  
     :jester:


    I'm on hold with them right now...   :dancing:

    Their answering machine is telling me that they are the only place that offers the Traditional Latin Mass in the "XYZ" area...

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #13 on: September 06, 2012, 12:07:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Quote from: SJB

    I see you've fallen off the wagon again.



    Report me to the SSPV  
     :jester:


    I'm thinking Bazz might be most disappointed in you.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Sede Catholic

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    « Reply #14 on: September 06, 2012, 09:17:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    In the absence of valid holy orders, we always have prayer.


    Good point.
    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV