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Author Topic: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny  (Read 7298 times)

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Offline Simeon

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Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2022, 02:14:46 PM »
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  • I just called Loreto publications. Cornelius a Lapide's Commentary of the Apocalypse is currently in translation. It is the next book they will put out. They estimate about a year before it's ready. 

    I'm salivating just thinking about it!

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #16 on: December 05, 2022, 02:17:04 PM »
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  • I just called Loreto publications. Cornelius a Lapide's Commentary of the Apocalypse is currently in translation. It is the next book they will put out. They estimate about a year before it's ready.

    I'm salivating just thinking about it!
    Deo gratias! I've been hoping for an English translation! Thanks for sharing 
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #17 on: December 05, 2022, 02:18:58 PM »
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  • I think he has some good insights, and I like book, but it's not necessarily a favorite
    He's eminently readable, if nothing else, and that quality is helpful with a book like Apocalypse. Now that I know I'm not crazy and that there are some real potholes on his street, I think I can sit back and finish the book, allowing him to guide me in his quirky way through that oh so impenetrable book. To be honest, much of what Kramer says has lit up bulbs in my mind. He has been helpful. 

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #18 on: December 05, 2022, 02:20:14 PM »
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  • While not a verse by verse commentary, St. Augustine's City of God, Book XX. I would definitely start there if you haven't read it. He looks at other Bible passages dealing with the end times, so he deals with the infallible sources in Scripture, with which any view on the Apocalypse must of course be consistent. He gives a necessary foundation that is useful before a close verse by verse study.

    Not sure what the best translation is, but it's on the New Advent.org: site: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm

    Fantastic idea!!!! Thank you!

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #19 on: December 05, 2022, 02:24:08 PM »
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  • I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.

    I did a quick jump to the commentary on Apoc. 19. He apparently makes the same error (in my judgment, and I agree with St. Augustine and the annotators of the Catholic Bibles I referenced) of believing the Antichrist to "appear long centuries before the last judgment and end of the world.," and I'd bet he, like Fr. Kramer, holds "the millenium" to be after the Antichrist. Page 189. On page 190, he says:


    Quote
    After the defeat of Antichrist the Gentile nations will return to the Church and the Jєωs will enter her fold. Then shall be fulfilled the words of Christ: ''There shall be one fold and one shepherd.'"


    Then? Wow.

    I'll read on, but I'm detecting a common fault with Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer, both of whose work appeared rather late in the history of the Church, in the 20th century. 

    Coincidence?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #20 on: December 05, 2022, 03:03:07 PM »
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  • I was piecing together this post, though I see Decem already mentioned it.

    In "The Apocalypse of St. John" (1921), Fr. Sylvester Berry gives a similar interpretation as Fr. Kramer, in which there is a universal triumph of the Church for centuries after the defeat of Antichrist, and prior to the end of the world.

    Quote
    "A careful reading of the Apocalypse shows clearly that Antichrist will appear long centuries before the last judgment and the end of the world."
    (p.189)
    Quote
    "After the defeat of Antichrist the Gentile nations will return to the Church and the Jєωs will enter her fold. Then shall be fulfilled the words of Christ: "There shall be one fold and one shepherd." (St. John x, 16.) Unfortunately sin and evil will not have entirely disappeared, the good and the bad will still be mingled in the Church, although the good shall predominate. After many centuries, symbolized by a thousand years, faith will diminish and charity grow cold as a result of the long peace and security enjoyed by the Church. Then Satan, unchained for a short time, will seduce many nations (Gog and Magog) to make war on the Church and persecute the faithful. These apostate nations shall be promptly overwhelmed with a deluge of fire and the Church will come forth again triumphant. The general judgment and the end of the world will then be near at hand. Men will be living in daily expectation until our Lord appears in the clouds with the suddenness of a lightning flash (St. Matthew xxiv, ,27.) Then shall all people be gathered together unto judgment."
    (pp.190-191)
    Quote
    "The prophecies cited above and hundreds of others scattered through the Scriptures make it certain that the reign of Christ shall be truly universal...

    "...These prophecies will not be fulfilled before the time of Antichrist, since the Apocalypse clearly shows that he will come into a world harassed by paganism, apostacy, schism, and heresy. (Apocalypse ix, 20, 21) The Jєωs still unconverted, will accept him as Messias and assist in his warfare against the Church. Only after the defeat of Antichrist and the return of the Gentile nations to the Faith, will the Jєωs accept Christ as the true Messias. Then shall begin the universal reign of Christ over all peoples, and tribes, and tongues."
    (p.192)
    https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up



    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #21 on: December 05, 2022, 04:15:59 PM »
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  • I was piecing together this post, though I see Decem already mentioned it.

    In "The Apocalypse of St. John" (1921), Fr. Sylvester Berry gives a similar interpretation as Fr. Kramer, in which there is a universal triumph of the Church for centuries after the defeat of Antichrist, and prior to the end of the world.
    https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up

    Thanks, Joe, for the quotes. 

    The problem I have with the Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer view is that it's Catholic utopian, and a sort of Catholic Judaizing eschatologically speaking, which is shown in its emphasis on an earthly reign and governance (like the Jews expected from the Messiah) and also in its focus on the Jews and a mass conversion of them. There's what I would call a materialist or physical expectation in the temporal world that smacks of the Judaizers. 

    In my view, the Kingdom, in its only manifestation on this earth and in this age, has already come: Christ reigns now, and has reigned since the Cross in His kingdom established some 2,000 or so years ago in the Catholic Church. And I reject the "mass conversion" theory of the Jews, who have been rejected for their corporate sins and "shall not be heir with the son of the free woman" in a corporate or collective sense. Galatians 4:40. The individual elect among them have come in, and will come in, and it is wonderful when they do so "for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28. I grant that I'm in the minority, probably large minority, on the latter point. 

    So I find this streak and tendency in the work of Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer troubling. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #22 on: December 05, 2022, 04:19:18 PM »
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  • I did a quick jump to the commentary on Apoc. 19. He apparently makes the same error (in my judgment, and I agree with St. Augustine and the annotators of the Catholic Bibles I referenced) of believing the Antichrist to "appear long centuries before the last judgment and end of the world.," and I'd bet he, like Fr. Kramer, holds "the millenium" to be after the Antichrist. Page 189. On page 190, he says:



    Then? Wow.

    I'll read on, but I'm detecting a common fault with Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer, both of whose work appeared rather late in the history of the Church, in the 20th century. 

    Coincidence?

    Fascinating. All the more reason to hungrily anticipate the a Lapide translation. 

    And another reason to look into what Augustine wrote in City of God. Thanks again. 

    BTW, I was quite naughty on the phone with Loreto today. I asked the man if Ryan Grant were the translator. Thankfully he seemed not quite familiar with the name, and told me point blank that Grant was not the translator. LOL!!














    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #23 on: December 05, 2022, 04:51:53 PM »
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  • I was piecing together this post, though I see Decem already mentioned it.

    In "The Apocalypse of St. John" (1921), Fr. Sylvester Berry gives a similar interpretation as Fr. Kramer, in which there is a universal triumph of the Church for centuries after the defeat of Antichrist, and prior to the end of the world.
    https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up
    I can say that in my own soul I am convinced that the world cannot end before Christ really does rule from sea to sea. Though the Gospel may be said to have been preached over the whole earth, my sense is that, in 2022, this is a mere technicality. In many nations, the Church has made almost no impact. For example, China. 

    My soul cannot accept that the thus-far failure of the Church to take hold, to transform society - in every single nation - is the final outcome before the Dies Irae. 

    I await the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. She is going to foil the plans now set in motion (and seemingly poised to succeed) to bring in the man of sin. 

    Vatican II is a Passion and Death of the Church, symbolically speaking. There has to be a Resurrection, when the enemies of God are put to flight, in the temporal realm. Everything must be put back in order. All revolutions must be extinguished - copernican, darwinian, protestant, marxist. The world cannot end without such a resolution. This resolution must take place before the Last Judgment. Christ must Rule all the nations of the earth. This is the Victory He has won. 

    The Church has participated her joyful and sorrowful mysteries, but not her glorious. 

    Where does antichrist come in? I have no idea. But it is entirely plausible to me that what now seems like his eminent entry onto the world scene, is an illusion. The strength of the revolution is spent, though it appears to be in full force. 

    Reason does not admit of its being as strong as it would project onto our minds. It is built upon a foundation of immorality, corruption, idolatry, murder. It is ready to fall. It has no real power.

    I don't think we are necessarily at the end of the world. I think we are in the midst of a universal winnowing of the chaff and the wheat. We are in a time of times, yes. But this time of times is for our instruction, and for the confusion of the enemies. We await a flowering of the Church that will make the whole world a paradise of sorts. The persecution now engulfing the Church is not the persecution of antichrist. It is a judgment of God against His own sinful people. 

    Antichrist will come to a world plunged again in sin; but I think there will be a difference compared to this time. When he appears, he will oppose a clearly delineated, structurally intact Church, which has long been purified and which is no longer under the curse of Vatican II. 










    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #24 on: December 05, 2022, 05:22:11 PM »
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  • Simeon,

    Here's a great thread with lots of citations to the fathers on the "great apostasy," the "last judgment," etc. :
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/

    One of my favorite threads here, and we have a lot of good ones. Happy hunting and browsing!!!

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #25 on: December 05, 2022, 05:23:56 PM »
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  • Thanks, Joe, for the quotes.

    The problem I have with the Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer view is that it's Catholic utopian, and a sort of Catholic Judaizing eschatologically speaking, which is shown in its emphasis on an earthly reign and governance (like the Jєωs expected from the Messiah) and also in its focus on the Jєωs and a mass conversion of them. There's what I would call a materialist or physical expectation in the temporal world that smacks of the Judaizers.

    In my view, the Kingdom, in its only manifestation on this earth and in this age, has already come: Christ reigns now, and has reigned since the Cross in His kingdom established some 2,000 or so years ago in the Catholic Church. And I reject the "mass conversion" theory of the Jєωs, who have been rejected for their corporate sins and "shall not be heir with the son of the free woman" in a corporate or collective sense. Galatians 4:40. The individual elect among them have come in, and will come in, and it is wonderful when they do so "for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28. I grant that I'm in the minority, probably large minority, on the latter point.

    So I find this streak and tendency in the work of Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer troubling.

    Wow.

    I did not read your post before I posted mine.

    I want to sleep on what you've said. You make perfect sense, but I have a gut feeling that some distinction can be made between the tempo-material effects of Christ's Victory on the Cross, and the false notion of a temporal Messias.

    Let me leave you with this for now. Oft when I consider the Fifth Joyful Mystery, it seems to me that Jesus left His Mother and Father with the intention of taking up residence in the Temple, just as His Mother had. He foreknew the outcome - rejection; and thus did not inform His Parents prior to the time, recognizing that He would return to Nazareth with them not many days hence.

    What did He intend to do?

    I have a pious belief that He actually manifested Himself to the priests and scribes. They would have known everything - His Mother and Father, His lineage, the time of His Birth, the prophecies of Daniel, the accounts given by the Magi, the timing of the murder of the Holy Innocents.

    They knew Him to be the Messias; they rejected, envied, and hated Him; they plotted His murder - not when He appeared in His public ministry at the age of 30, but when He manifested Himself to them at the age of 12.

    They sent Him packing.

    They kicked Him out of His own Temple. They literally stole the Temple from God. God had His own designs and plans, which He allowed them to ruin - for a time.

    This sin must have brought upon them a terrible curse. Their hearts were hardened, and they became as cruel beasts - the very beasts we meet 18 years later - implacable in a satanic hatred and envy of very God. 

    I believe that Jesus had twelve Apostles in that Temple - twelve men who rejected His call. I believe He would have ruled from the Temple with His Apostles, and they would have gone out from Jerusalem into the whole world.

    I believe that Peter and the Eleven, though foreknown and chosen in the Mind of God, were nevertheless the recipients of graces originally intended for others - as the throne of the Saints in Heaven were originally intended for the fallen angels. Jesus would have gone first to His priests, no?

    God's word does not return to Him void. There is going to be a time in the history of the world when the fulness of Christ's Victory is realized. His power and majesty must be felt over the whole earth - for "the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof." (Psalm 23) I believe this has been decreed from the Beginning.

    Yes, His kingdom is not of this world, but He, as God-Man, must rule in the midst of His enemies.   

    Surely this earthly reign, none other than a universal, world-wide Christendom, can be distinguished from the Jєωιѕн lie. For though the perfidious jews have never, and will never, see their pipedream realized, we have already tasted and seen the splendors of the Social Reign of Christ the King in Europe. What remains now is only its perfection by way of purification and extension. 

    Off to sleep now! :)




























    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #26 on: December 05, 2022, 05:27:35 PM »
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  • Simeon,

    Here's a great thread with lots of citations to the fathers on the "great apostasy," the "last judgment," etc. :
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/

    One of my favorite threads here, and we have a lot of good ones. Happy hunting and browsing!!!

    DR
    Muchas gracias! :cowboy:

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #27 on: December 06, 2022, 08:50:40 AM »
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  • Wow.

    I did not read your post before I posted mine.

    I want to sleep on what you've said. You make perfect sense, but I have a gut feeling that some distinction can be made between the tempo-material effects of Christ's Victory on the Cross, and the false notion of a temporal Messias.

    Let me leave you with this for now. Oft when I consider the Fifth Joyful Mystery, it seems to me that Jesus left His Mother and Father with the intention of taking up residence in the Temple, just as His Mother had. He foreknew the outcome - rejection; and thus did not inform His Parents prior to the time, recognizing that He would return to Nazareth with them not many days hence.

    What did He intend to do?

    I have a pious belief that He actually manifested Himself to the priests and scribes. They would have known everything - His Mother and Father, His lineage, the time of His Birth, the prophecies of Daniel, the accounts given by the Magi, the timing of the murder of the Holy Innocents.

    They knew Him to be the Messias; they rejected, envied, and hated Him; they plotted His murder - not when He appeared in His public ministry at the age of 30, but when He manifested Himself to them at the age of 12.

    They sent Him packing.

    They kicked Him out of His own Temple. They literally stole the Temple from God. God had His own designs and plans, which He allowed them to ruin - for a time.

    This sin must have brought upon them a terrible curse. Their hearts were hardened, and they became as cruel beasts - the very beasts we meet 18 years later - implacable in a satanic hatred and envy of very God. 

    I believe that Jesus had twelve Apostles in that Temple - twelve men who rejected His call. I believe He would have ruled from the Temple with His Apostles, and they would have gone out from Jerusalem into the whole world.

    I believe that Peter and the Eleven, though foreknown and chosen in the Mind of God, were nevertheless the recipients of graces originally intended for others - as the throne of the Saints in Heaven were originally intended for the fallen angels. Jesus would have gone first to His priests, no?

    God's word does not return to Him void. There is going to be a time in the history of the world when the fulness of Christ's Victory is realized. His power and majesty must be felt over the whole earth - for "the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof." (Psalm 23) I believe this has been decreed from the Beginning.

    Yes, His kingdom is not of this world, but He, as God-Man, must rule in the midst of His enemies.   

    Surely this earthly reign, none other than a universal, world-wide Christendom, can be distinguished from the Jєωιѕн lie. For though the perfidious Jєωs have never, and will never, see their pipedream realized, we have already tasted and seen the splendors of the Social Reign of Christ the King in Europe. What remains now is only its perfection by way of purification and extension.

    Off to sleep now! :)

    Simeon,

    Indeed, God's word does not return to Him void. On this we agree, of course. 

    As we discuss this, can I ask you a few questions first? They would be:

    1) Do you believe that there will be a mass conversion of the Jews to the true faith at some point?

    2) When do you believe the Antichrist comes?

    3) How do you understand the millenium of Apoc. 20? When is it on the divine time table?

    DR


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #28 on: December 06, 2022, 03:16:49 PM »
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  • Simeon,

    Indeed, God's word does not return to Him void. On this we agree, of course.

    As we discuss this, can I ask you a few questions first? They would be:

    1) Do you believe that there will be a mass conversion of the Jєωs to the true faith at some point?

    2) When do you believe the Antichrist comes?

    3) How do you understand the millenium of Apoc. 20? When is it on the divine time table?

    DR


       1) Do you believe that there will be a mass conversion of the Jєωs to the true faith at some point?

    I have heard all my Catholic life that the jews will convert at the end of the world. I have not read the Apocalypse because it is too mysterious for me. I try to read it and then have to put it down. Nor have I read through an entire  commentary. The same thing happens. I start and cannot finish.

    I have no opinion on the conversion of the jews at the end times, except I have been led to believe that this is the common doctrine of the Church. I wonder about this a lot; for, in the first place, who are the jews? The filthy kazars are not from the line of Sem, correct? Who are the jews?

    You use the term “mass conversion,” and I sense that the word ‘mass’ contains a lot of the meaning of your own position. I don’t know exactly what you mean by it. My understanding, based upon what I’ve gleaned over the years, is that the conversion of the jews will be a corporate act – not the act of a few individuals. This is not my own opinion or intuitive sense of things. It is merely what I’ve heard.

    Thus, I have no true opinion, only questions.


    2) When do you believe the Antichrist comes?

    That’s my $64,000 question. My intuitive sense is that Our Lady will Triumph, and Christ will rule from sea to sea, before the antichrist arrives. But I understand perfectly well that I am just as likely to be wrong as right.

    That being said, I was thinking this morning that, while we certainly are right now in a great apostasy of the Gentiles, it might not be the Great Apostasy. What if all the nations of the world converted and Christendom became a universal reality? Would not a subsequent apostasy of the entire earth – after so much grace and truth were given back to the world – in fact merit the antichrist and his persecution?

    3) How do you understand the millenium of Apoc. 20? When is it on the divine time table?

    I don’t understand it at all, because I have never applied my mind to consider it. But I reject the protestant notion of rapture and a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. Because I reject these things, and because I saw what seemed to me to be a reference to this notion, as if it were true, in Fr. Kramer’s book, I started this thread.

    Tell me, does St. Augustine address any of the questions you posed to me?

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #29 on: December 06, 2022, 03:33:40 PM »
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  • Thanks, Joe, for the quotes.

    The problem I have with the Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer view is that it's Catholic utopian, and a sort of Catholic Judaizing eschatologically speaking, which is shown in its emphasis on an earthly reign and governance (like the Jєωs expected from the Messiah) and also in its focus on the Jєωs and a mass conversion of them. There's what I would call a materialist or physical expectation in the temporal world that smacks of the Judaizers.

    In my view, the Kingdom, in its only manifestation on this earth and in this age, has already come: Christ reigns now, and has reigned since the Cross in His kingdom established some 2,000 or so years ago in the Catholic Church. And I reject the "mass conversion" theory of the Jєωs, who have been rejected for their corporate sins and "shall not be heir with the son of the free woman" in a corporate or collective sense. Galatians 4:40. The individual elect among them have come in, and will come in, and it is wonderful when they do so "for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28. I grant that I'm in the minority, probably large minority, on the latter point.

    So I find this streak and tendency in the work of Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer troubling.

    Given what we know of a satanic social order - how fetuses, babies, and children are murdered, perverted, corrupted, brainwashed, genitally mutilated - it cannot be Catholic utopianism to strive for, pray for, and even expect the restoration of the Social Reign of Christ the King. For the Popes themselves have striven for it, have prayed for it, have expected it

    It is to be striven for, for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. Not to pray for it, not to hope for it, not to strive for it, seems to me to be a culpable omission. 

    Fr. Denis Fahey devoted his life to the restoration of the Christian social order. The Popes are ever exhorting the members of the Church to restore it. The social doctrine of the Church exists for the purpose of establishing Christendom wherever the Gospel is preached. 

    Perhaps only because things seem now so hopeless, do we dare call the striving for what it is our duty for to strive, a kind of utopianism.

    St. Pius X:  No, Venerable Brethren, We must repeat with the utmost energy in these times of social and intellectual anarchy - when everyone takes it upon himself to teach as a teacher and lawmaker - the City cannot be built otherwise than as God has built it; society cannot be setup unless the Church lays the foundations and supervises the work; no, civilization is not something yet to be found, nor is the New City to be built on hazy notions; it has been in existence and still is: it is Christian civilization, it is the Catholic City. It has only to be set up and restored continually against the unremitting attacks of insane dreamers, rebels and miscreants. OMNIA INSTAURARE IN CHRISTO.