I find more quotes when I change the spelling of millenium to use two "n's."
"That day will be the destruction of antichrist and all his hordes, and the establishment of the millenium thereafter."
"The golden promises of the prophets shall be fulfilled, and the millenium shall be ushered in."
"...so much more glorious will those countries be in the future millenium, when the Church shall be universally obeyed..."
"...they have given up all share in the earthly millenium..."
And so forth. There were 61 hits when I spelled it with two "n's."
What is this????!!!!!!!!
PIUS XII 1939-1958
Millenarianism (Chiliasm) *
[Decree of the Holy Office, July 21, 1944]
2296 In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.
https://staging2.sensusfidelium.com/the-sources-of-catholic-dogma-the-denzinger/pius-xii-1939-1958-millenarianism-chiliasm/
Decem,
Thank you so much. I thought it might be the case. I'm not at all at my ease reading someone with this point of view.
It's unfortunate because he otherwise makes very insightful comments about the Apocalypse.
Have you read his book? Would you recommend it?
And thank you for the link to the other thread. I'll check it out.
And they came upon the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. [9] And there came down fire from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast [10] And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Verse four is impossible of logical interpretation for those who place the thousand years chronologically ahead of the reign of Antichrist, because its contents are a positive contradiction of that theory.
Original Rheims annotation - 2. Bound him. ] Christ by his Passion hath abridged the power of the Devil for a thousand years, that is, the whole time of the new Testament, until Antichrist's time, when he shall be loosed again, that is, be permitted to deceive the world, but for a short time only, to wit, three years and a half.
Challoner - "Bound him": The power of Satan has been very much limited by the passion of Christ: for a thousand years; that is, for the whole time of the New Testament; but especially from the time of the destruction of Babylon or pagan Rome, till the new efforts of Gog and Magog against the church, towards the end of the world. During which time the souls of the martyrs and saints live and reign with Christ in heaven, in the first resurrection, which is that of the soul to the life of glory; as the second resurrection will be that of the body, at the day of the general judgment.
He's not talking about millennialism, I've talked about this passage in his book before. He's talking about a period of the universal reign of the Church on earth after Antichrist, culminating in the battle of Gog and Magog right before Christ returns. Its referring to Apoc. 20:7.
There's a possibility of there being a certain period after the death of Antichrist where the Jєωs convert. Some take this to be maybe 40 days to decades. Some say centuries, such as Fr. Kramer, leading up to the second coming. Others think the world ends immediately upon the death of Antichrist.
He [i.e., St. Augustine} then expounds what may be understood by the binding and chaining of the devil for a thousand years; (Cap. vii. & viii, p. 581) that the thousand years, meaning a long time, may signify all the time from Christ's first coming[4] to his second at the end of the world, and to the last short persecution under antichrist.
Decem, thank you for what I would qualify as a mighty reply!
I wouldn't recommend the book, though I also wouldn't recommend not reading it. I think some of his readings are on the verge of fantastic, and that he tends to read things too literally - no, that's not the right word. He often reads things which have a spiritual or poetic sense in a material way, as referring to some actual physical or material phenomenon. This bent to his thought is exemplified regarding Apoc. 20:8-10, which reads:
Of the fire from heaven, he writes, "[p]erhaps the Church shall defend herself through a small army by some destructive electric ray." That's just a rather prominent example of I think a general tendency on his part.
But more importantly, I distrust him overall in light of this, from page 451 of my edition (Tan, 1972 reprint), regarding the 1,000 years of Apoc. 20:4, the Millenium:
That's emphatic language, pulling no punches. Unfortunately, he's saying that the predominant interpretation of Catholic theologians going back to St. Augustine at least in his book City of God is logically impossible and contradicting Apoc. 20:4. That's quite astounding to me. I can't believe he was ignorant of that more dominant and common reading, exemplified in the notes to the Douay Rheims, both those of the original annotators and Bishop Challoner:
To dismiss that reading as "impossible of logical interpretation" and contradicted by the verse - not merely saying you disagree with it after acknowledging it - is a huge red flag to me. Actually, he doesn't even acknowledge the Augustinian and Douay Rheims interpretation anywhere to my recollection, and certainly doesn't in his commentary on verse 4, which you would think he would since it's the verse containing the 1,000 years of the Millenium.
So, while Fr. Kramer makes some interesting, valuable and accurate observations, I'd be wary of giving him too much weight.
DR
I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.Thank you, DL. I have it.
Thank you, DL. I have it.I think he has some good insights, and I like book, but it's not necessarily a favorite
Do you recommend Kramer?
To DR and DL: Thank you for your comments. Very enlightening!
Now I have to decide whether to finish the book. I was enjoying it a lot, with these several exceptions.
What is the best commentary on the Apocalypse that is available in English?
I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.
While not a verse by verse commentary, St. Augustine's City of God, Book XX. I would definitely start there if you haven't read it. He looks at other Bible passages dealing with the end times, so he deals with the infallible sources in Scripture, with which any view on the Apocalypse must of course be consistent. He gives a necessary foundation that is useful before a close verse by verse study.
Not sure what the best translation is, but it's on the New Advent.org: site: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm
I just called Loreto publications. Cornelius a Lapide's Commentary of the Apocalypse is currently in translation. It is the next book they will put out. They estimate about a year before it's ready.Deo gratias! I've been hoping for an English translation! Thanks for sharing
I'm salivating just thinking about it!
I think he has some good insights, and I like book, but it's not necessarily a favoriteHe's eminently readable, if nothing else, and that quality is helpful with a book like Apocalypse. Now that I know I'm not crazy and that there are some real potholes on his street, I think I can sit back and finish the book, allowing him to guide me in his quirky way through that oh so impenetrable book. To be honest, much of what Kramer says has lit up bulbs in my mind. He has been helpful.
While not a verse by verse commentary, St. Augustine's City of God, Book XX. I would definitely start there if you haven't read it. He looks at other Bible passages dealing with the end times, so he deals with the infallible sources in Scripture, with which any view on the Apocalypse must of course be consistent. He gives a necessary foundation that is useful before a close verse by verse study.Fantastic idea!!!! Thank you!
Not sure what the best translation is, but it's on the New Advent.org: site: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm
I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.
After the defeat of Antichrist the Gentile nations will return to the Church and the Jєωs will enter her fold. Then shall be fulfilled the words of Christ: ''There shall be one fold and one shepherd.'"
"A careful reading of the Apocalypse shows clearly that Antichrist will appear long centuries before the last judgment and the end of the world."
(p.189)
"After the defeat of Antichrist the Gentile nations will return to the Church and the Jєωs will enter her fold. Then shall be fulfilled the words of Christ: "There shall be one fold and one shepherd." (St. John x, 16.) Unfortunately sin and evil will not have entirely disappeared, the good and the bad will still be mingled in the Church, although the good shall predominate. After many centuries, symbolized by a thousand years, faith will diminish and charity grow cold as a result of the long peace and security enjoyed by the Church. Then Satan, unchained for a short time, will seduce many nations (Gog and Magog) to make war on the Church and persecute the faithful. These apostate nations shall be promptly overwhelmed with a deluge of fire and the Church will come forth again triumphant. The general judgment and the end of the world will then be near at hand. Men will be living in daily expectation until our Lord appears in the clouds with the suddenness of a lightning flash (St. Matthew xxiv, ,27.) Then shall all people be gathered together unto judgment."
(pp.190-191)
"The prophecies cited above and hundreds of others scattered through the Scriptures make it certain that the reign of Christ shall be truly universal...https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up)
"...These prophecies will not be fulfilled before the time of Antichrist, since the Apocalypse clearly shows that he will come into a world harassed by paganism, apostacy, schism, and heresy. (Apocalypse ix, 20, 21) The Jєωs still unconverted, will accept him as Messias and assist in his warfare against the Church. Only after the defeat of Antichrist and the return of the Gentile nations to the Faith, will the Jєωs accept Christ as the true Messias. Then shall begin the universal reign of Christ over all peoples, and tribes, and tongues."
(p.192)
I was piecing together this post, though I see Decem already mentioned it.
In "The Apocalypse of St. John" (1921), Fr. Sylvester Berry gives a similar interpretation as Fr. Kramer, in which there is a universal triumph of the Church for centuries after the defeat of Antichrist, and prior to the end of the world.
https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up)
Fascinating. All the more reason to hungrily anticipate the a Lapide translation.
I did a quick jump to the commentary on Apoc. 19. He apparently makes the same error (in my judgment, and I agree with St. Augustine and the annotators of the Catholic Bibles I referenced) of believing the Antichrist to "appear long centuries before the last judgment and end of the world.," and I'd bet he, like Fr. Kramer, holds "the millenium" to be after the Antichrist. Page 189. On page 190, he says:
Then? Wow.
I'll read on, but I'm detecting a common fault with Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer, both of whose work appeared rather late in the history of the Church, in the 20th century.
Coincidence?
I was piecing together this post, though I see Decem already mentioned it.I can say that in my own soul I am convinced that the world cannot end before Christ really does rule from sea to sea. Though the Gospel may be said to have been preached over the whole earth, my sense is that, in 2022, this is a mere technicality. In many nations, the Church has made almost no impact. For example, China.
In "The Apocalypse of St. John" (1921), Fr. Sylvester Berry gives a similar interpretation as Fr. Kramer, in which there is a universal triumph of the Church for centuries after the defeat of Antichrist, and prior to the end of the world.
https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/theapocalypseofs00berruoft/page/n3/mode/2up)
Thanks, Joe, for the quotes.Wow.
The problem I have with the Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer view is that it's Catholic utopian, and a sort of Catholic Judaizing eschatologically speaking, which is shown in its emphasis on an earthly reign and governance (like the Jєωs expected from the Messiah) and also in its focus on the Jєωs and a mass conversion of them. There's what I would call a materialist or physical expectation in the temporal world that smacks of the Judaizers.
In my view, the Kingdom, in its only manifestation on this earth and in this age, has already come: Christ reigns now, and has reigned since the Cross in His kingdom established some 2,000 or so years ago in the Catholic Church. And I reject the "mass conversion" theory of the Jєωs, who have been rejected for their corporate sins and "shall not be heir with the son of the free woman" in a corporate or collective sense. Galatians 4:40. The individual elect among them have come in, and will come in, and it is wonderful when they do so "for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28. I grant that I'm in the minority, probably large minority, on the latter point.
So I find this streak and tendency in the work of Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer troubling.
Simeon,Muchas gracias! :cowboy:
Here's a great thread with lots of citations to the fathers on the "great apostasy," the "last judgment," etc. :
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/
One of my favorite threads here, and we have a lot of good ones. Happy hunting and browsing!!!
DR
Wow.
I did not read your post before I posted mine.
I want to sleep on what you've said. You make perfect sense, but I have a gut feeling that some distinction can be made between the tempo-material effects of Christ's Victory on the Cross, and the false notion of a temporal Messias.
Let me leave you with this for now. Oft when I consider the Fifth Joyful Mystery, it seems to me that Jesus left His Mother and Father with the intention of taking up residence in the Temple, just as His Mother had. He foreknew the outcome - rejection; and thus did not inform His Parents prior to the time, recognizing that He would return to Nazareth with them not many days hence.
What did He intend to do?
I have a pious belief that He actually manifested Himself to the priests and scribes. They would have known everything - His Mother and Father, His lineage, the time of His Birth, the prophecies of Daniel, the accounts given by the Magi, the timing of the murder of the Holy Innocents.
They knew Him to be the Messias; they rejected, envied, and hated Him; they plotted His murder - not when He appeared in His public ministry at the age of 30, but when He manifested Himself to them at the age of 12.
They sent Him packing.
They kicked Him out of His own Temple. They literally stole the Temple from God. God had His own designs and plans, which He allowed them to ruin - for a time.
This sin must have brought upon them a terrible curse. Their hearts were hardened, and they became as cruel beasts - the very beasts we meet 18 years later - implacable in a satanic hatred and envy of very God.
I believe that Jesus had twelve Apostles in that Temple - twelve men who rejected His call. I believe He would have ruled from the Temple with His Apostles, and they would have gone out from Jerusalem into the whole world.
I believe that Peter and the Eleven, though foreknown and chosen in the Mind of God, were nevertheless the recipients of graces originally intended for others - as the throne of the Saints in Heaven were originally intended for the fallen angels. Jesus would have gone first to His priests, no?
God's word does not return to Him void. There is going to be a time in the history of the world when the fulness of Christ's Victory is realized. His power and majesty must be felt over the whole earth - for "the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof." (Psalm 23) I believe this has been decreed from the Beginning.
Yes, His kingdom is not of this world, but He, as God-Man, must rule in the midst of His enemies.
Surely this earthly reign, none other than a universal, world-wide Christendom, can be distinguished from the Jєωιѕн lie. For though the perfidious Jєωs have never, and will never, see their pipedream realized, we have already tasted and seen the splendors of the Social Reign of Christ the King in Europe. What remains now is only its perfection by way of purification and extension.
Off to sleep now! :)
Simeon,1) Do you believe that there will be a mass conversion of the Jєωs to the true faith at some point?
Indeed, God's word does not return to Him void. On this we agree, of course.
As we discuss this, can I ask you a few questions first? They would be:
1) Do you believe that there will be a mass conversion of the Jєωs to the true faith at some point?
2) When do you believe the Antichrist comes?
3) How do you understand the millenium of Apoc. 20? When is it on the divine time table?
DR
Thanks, Joe, for the quotes.Given what we know of a satanic social order - how fetuses, babies, and children are murdered, perverted, corrupted, brainwashed, genitally mutilated - it cannot be Catholic utopianism to strive for, pray for, and even expect the restoration of the Social Reign of Christ the King. For the Popes themselves have striven for it, have prayed for it, have expected it
The problem I have with the Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer view is that it's Catholic utopian, and a sort of Catholic Judaizing eschatologically speaking, which is shown in its emphasis on an earthly reign and governance (like the Jєωs expected from the Messiah) and also in its focus on the Jєωs and a mass conversion of them. There's what I would call a materialist or physical expectation in the temporal world that smacks of the Judaizers.
In my view, the Kingdom, in its only manifestation on this earth and in this age, has already come: Christ reigns now, and has reigned since the Cross in His kingdom established some 2,000 or so years ago in the Catholic Church. And I reject the "mass conversion" theory of the Jєωs, who have been rejected for their corporate sins and "shall not be heir with the son of the free woman" in a corporate or collective sense. Galatians 4:40. The individual elect among them have come in, and will come in, and it is wonderful when they do so "for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28. I grant that I'm in the minority, probably large minority, on the latter point.
So I find this streak and tendency in the work of Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer troubling.
I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.I second this. Fr. Sylverster Berry goes through verse by verse.
In "The Apocalypse of St. John" (1921), Fr. Sylvester Berry gives a similar interpretation as Fr. Kramer, in which there is a universal triumph of the Church for centuries after the defeat of Antichrist, and prior to the end of the world.This scripture syncs with the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
QuoteQuote"A careful reading of the Apocalypse shows clearly that Antichrist will appear long centuries before the last judgment and the end of the world."
(p.189)
QuoteQuote"After the defeat of Antichrist the Gentile nations will return to the Church and the Jєωs will enter her fold. Then shall be fulfilled the words of Christ: "There shall be one fold and one shepherd." (St. John x, 16.)
1) Do you believe that there will be a mass conversion of the Jєωs to the true faith at some point?
I have heard all my Catholic life that the Jєωs will convert at the end of the world. I have not read the Apocalypse because it is too mysterious for me. I try to read it and then have to put it down. Nor have I read through an entire commentary. The same thing happens. I start and cannot finish.
I have no opinion on the conversion of the Jєωs at the end times, except I have been led to believe that this is the common doctrine of the Church. I wonder about this a lot; for, in the first place, who are the Jєωs? The filthy kazars are not from the line of Sem, correct? Who are the Jєωs?
You use the term “mass conversion,” and I sense that the word ‘mass’ contains a lot of the meaning of your own position. I don’t know exactly what you mean by it. My understanding, based upon what I’ve gleaned over the years, is that the conversion of the Jєωs will be a corporate act – not the act of a few individuals. This is not my own opinion or intuitive sense of things. It is merely what I’ve heard.
Thus, I have no true opinion, only questions.
2) When do you believe the Antichrist comes?
That’s my $64,000 question. My intuitive sense is that Our Lady will Triumph, and Christ will rule from sea to sea, before the antichrist arrives. But I understand perfectly well that I am just as likely to be wrong as right.
That being said, I was thinking this morning that, while we certainly are right now in a great apostasy of the Gentiles, it might not be the Great Apostasy. What if all the nations of the world converted and Christendom became a universal reality? Would not a subsequent apostasy of the entire earth – after so much grace and truth were given back to the world – in fact merit the antichrist and his persecution?
3) How do you understand the millenium of Apoc. 20? When is it on the divine time table?
I don’t understand it at all, because I have never applied my mind to consider it. But I reject the protestant notion of rapture and a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. Because I reject these things, and because I saw what seemed to me to be a reference to this notion, as if it were true, in Fr. Kramer’s book, I started this thread.
Tell me, does St. Augustine address any of the questions you posed to me?
You use the term “mass conversion,” and I sense that the word ‘mass’ contains a lot of the meaning of your own position. I don’t know exactly what you mean by it. My understanding, based upon what I’ve gleaned over the years, is that the conversion of the Jєωs will be a corporate act – not the act of a few individuals. This is not my own opinion or intuitive sense of things. It is merely what I’ve heard.
But I reject the protestant notion of rapture and a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth.
Tell me, does St. Augustine address any of the questions you posed to me?
He [i.e., St. Augustine} then expounds what may be understood by the binding and chaining of the devil for a thousand years; (Cap. vii. & viii, p. 581) that the thousand years, meaning a long time, may signify all the time from Christ's first coming[4] to his second at the end of the world, and to the last short persecution under antichrist.
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 7
Now the thousand years may be understood in two ways, so far as occurs to me: either because these things happen in the sixth thousand of years or sixth millennium (the latter part of which is now passing), as if during the sixth day, which is to be followed by a Sabbath which has no evening, the endless rest of the saints, so that, speaking of a part under the name of the whole, he calls the last part of the millennium—the part, that is, which had yet to expire before the end of the world—a thousand years; or he used the thousand years as an equivalent for the whole duration of this world, employing the number of perfection to mark the fullness of time.
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 3320-3321). Kindle Edition.
Apoc. 20
[1] And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand. [2] And he laid hold on the dragon the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. [3] And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should no more seduce the nations, till the thousand years be finished. And after that, he must be loosed a little time. [4] And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
“The rest of them,” he says, “did not live.” For now is the hour when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live; and the rest of them shall not live. The words added, “until the thousand years are finished,” mean that they did not live in the time in which they ought to have lived by passing from death to life. And therefore, when the day of the bodily resurrection arrives, they shall come out of their graves, not to life, but to judgment, namely, to damnation, which is called the second death. For whosoever has not lived until the thousand years be finished, i.e ., during this whole time in which the first resurrection is going on,—whosoever has not heard the voice of the Son of God, and passed from death to life,—that man shall certainly in the second resurrection, the resurrection of the flesh, pass with his flesh into the second death.
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3333). Kindle Edition.
Quote
This scripture syncs with the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Father Berry, elucidating the Apocalypse of St. John, clearly shows that the antichrist comes first. Although he does not allude to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (he wrote this book in 1921) it is consistent with what the Bible says about "one fold and one shepherd." Following that era of peace, events follow which lead up to the Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ.
Therefore the Church even now is the kingdom of Christ, and the kingdom of heaven. Accordingly, even now His saints reign with Him, though otherwise than as they shall reign hereafter;
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3330). Kindle Edition.
Eschatology or the Catholic Doctrine of the Last Things SECTION 2A Dogmatic Treatise Rev. Joseph Pohle Ph.D. D.D CHILIASM, OR MILLENARIANISM 1. CHILIASM IN ITS TWO FORMS.—There are two forms of Chiliasm or Millenarianism. The exaggerated form is heretical, while the more moderate is simply erroneous. a) The heretical form of Chiliasm may be traced partly to the Jєωιѕн expectation of a temporal Messias and partly to the apocryphal writings of the Old Testament, which abound in fables. The Chiliasts of this school conceived the millennium as a period of unbridled sensual indulgence. Eusebius the church-historian says of Cerinthus, a Gnostic heretic who flourished towards the end of the first century: “He held that at some time in the future Christ would reign on earth; and as he was addicted to the pleasures of the flesh, he imagined that the reign of God would consist of such things.” This error was shared by the ancient Ebionites and Apollinarianists and, in a somewhat more respectable form, still persists among the Mormons and Irvingites. b) Moderate Chiliasm had a number of adherents among Patristic writers, notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Nepos, Commodian, Victorinus of Pettau, and Lactantius. Its favorite text was Apoc. 20:1 sqq. Papias believed that the Resurrection of the flesh would be followed by a glorious reign of Christ, in which the Saints would enjoy a superabundance of earthly pleasures for a thousand years. These pleasures, however, were to be spiritual, or at least morally licit. In developing this idea its champions parted ways. Some expected the millennium between the General Judgment and the Resurrection of the dead, while others believed it would occur after the General Resurrection, immediately before the assumption of the just into Heaven. A third, still more moderate group of Millenarianists, which is not yet extinct, contents itself with asserting that an era of universal peace and tranquillity will precede the second coming of Christ, to be suddenly interrupted by the great apostasy and the forerunners of Anti-Christ. 2. REFUTATION OF CHILIASM.—Chiliasm in both its forms is untenable. a) Heretical Chiliasm stands condemned in the light of the moral law, which excludes intemperance and unchastity from the kingdom of Heaven. It is blasphemous and an insult to God to assert that Christ, who is all-holy, will found an earthly paradise for libertines. No wonder even those Fathers and ecclesiastical writers who entertained Chiliastic ideas vigorously condemned this grossly sensual species of Millenarianism as heretical. b) It is not so easy to refute the more moderate form of Chiliasm, for it seems to have a basis in Sacred Scripture and primitive Tradition. The New Testament as well as the early creeds speak of the Resurrection of the flesh, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world in terms which make it apparent that these three events are to follow one another in close succession, leaving no time for a millennium. α) The favorite passage of the Chiliasts is in the Apocalypse and reads as follows: “And I beheld an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.… They [i. e. the just] came to life again, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead came not to life until the thousand years were accomplished. This is the first resurrection.… And when the thousand years are accomplished, Satan shall be loosed from his prison, and he shall come forth to lead astray the nations which are in the four corners of the earth …” This is undeniably one of the most difficult and obscure passages found in Sacred Scripture, and no one has yet succeeded in explaining it satisfactorily. But it proves nothing in favor of Millenarianism, which has no claim to our assent unless it can show that its tenets do not conflict with the general teaching of the Bible. Among the more probable interpretations of the Johannine text suggested by Catholic writers we may mention that of St. Augustine, which was adopted by Pope St. Gregory the Great. These two Fathers think that the imprisonment of Satan refers to the first coming of our Lord, and his temporary loosing to His second coming (parousia) at the reign with His saints on earth (the “first resurrection”) signifies the kingdom of Heaven, where the Blessed reign under the headship of our Lord before the “second resurrection” (i. e. the Resurrection of the flesh). Similarly, the term “first death” is applied to the separation of the body from the soul, whereas “second death” refers to eternal damnation. If this theory is correct, the number one thousand is not to be taken literally, but simply indicates an indefinite period of considerable length. β) Despite appearances to the contrary, Chiliasm has no foundation in Tradition. Among its early advocates Lactantius, Nepos, Commodian, and Victorinus may, in the light of the Decretum Gelasianum, be set aside as worthless witnesses. The same could be said of Sulpicius Severus if he were to be reckoned among the Chiliasts, which is, however, extremely doubtful, as his extant writings contain no trace of this error. Of the remaining writers who are quoted in favor of Chiliasm we may disregard Papias because he was uncritical, and Tertullian because he was a heretic when he embraced Millenarianism. St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus, the only two remaining witnesses who are absolutely trustworthy, did not inculcate Chiliasm as an article of faith, but merely proposed it as a personal opinion. Whether St. Melito, Bishop of Sardes, harbored Millenarian notions, is uncertain. St. Hippolytus, who is numbered among the Chiliasts by Bonwetsch, has not written a single line, in the works that have come down to us, which must necessarily be interpreted in a Chiliastic sense. Bonwetsch himself is constrained to admit that Hippolytus discarded some of the eschatological notions held by Irenaeus and Tertullian. Among the opponents of Chiliasm were Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, and Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria, whom Eusebius honored with the title of Great and St. Athanasius called a Doctor of the Catholic Church. READINGS:—J. B. Paganini, Das Ende der Welt oder die Wiederkunft unseres Herrn, 2nd ed., Ratisbon 1882.—J. Bautz, Weltgericht und Weltende, Mayence 1886.—J. Sigmund, Das Ende der Zeiten mit einem Nachblick in die Ewigkeit, oder das Weltgericht mit seinen Ursachen, Vorzeichen und Folgen, Salzburg 1892.—J. A. McHugh in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, pp. 552 sq.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, 3 Vols., St. Louis 1910–1916, see Index s. v. “Judgment.”—St. Thomas, S. Theol., Supplem., qu. 49–91.—B. J. Otten, S. J., A Manual of the History of Dogmas, Vol. II, St. Louis 1918, pp. 422 sqq. On Chiliasm see H. Corrodi, Kritische Geschichte des Chiliasmus, 1794.—H. Klee, De Chiliasmo Primorum Saeculorum, Mayence 1825.—Wagner, Der Chiliasmus in den ersten Jahrhunderten, 1849.—J. N. Schneider, Die chiliastische Doktrin und ihr Verhältnis zur christlichen Glaubenslehre (pro-Chiliastic), Schaffhausen 1859.—J. P. Kirsch, art. “Millennium,” in Vol. X of the Catholic Encyclopedia, pp. 307–310.—Chiapelli, Le Idee Millenarie dei Cristiani, Naples 1888.—L. Guy, Le Millénarisme dans ses Origines et son Développement, Paris 1904.—Franzelin, De Scriptura et Traditione, P. II, thes. 16, Rome 1896.—H. Kihn, Patrologie, Vol. I, pp. 120 sqq., Paderborn 1904.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, Vol. I, St. Louis 1910 (see Index s. v. “Millenarianism”).—Shirley Jackson, The Millennial Hope, Chicago 1918. |
I thought Fr. Pohle's opinion would be a worthwhile addition to the discussion:
A Dogmatic Treatise
Rev. Joseph Pohle Ph.D. D.D
CHILIASM, OR MILLENARIANISM
1. CHILIASM IN ITS TWO FORMS.—There are two forms of Chiliasm or Millenarianism. The exaggerated form is heretical, while the more moderate is simply erroneous.
a) The heretical form of Chiliasm may be traced partly to the Jєωιѕн expectation of a temporal Messias and partly to the apocryphal writings of the Old Testament, which abound in fables. The Chiliasts of this school conceived the millennium as a period of unbridled sensual indulgence. Eusebius the church-historian says of Cerinthus, a Gnostic heretic who flourished towards the end of the first century: “He held that at some time in the future Christ would reign on earth; and as he was addicted to the pleasures of the flesh, he imagined that the reign of God would consist of such things.” This error was shared by the ancient Ebionites and Apollinarianists and, in a somewhat more respectable form, still persists among the Mormons and Irvingites.
b) Moderate Chiliasm had a number of adherents among Patristic writers, notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Nepos, Commodian, Victorinus of Pettau, and Lactantius. Its favorite text was Apoc. 20:1 sqq. Papias believed that the Resurrection of the flesh would be followed by a glorious reign of Christ, in which the Saints would enjoy a superabundance of earthly pleasures for a thousand years. These pleasures, however, were to be spiritual, or at least morally licit. In developing this idea its champions parted ways. Some expected the millennium between the General Judgment and the Resurrection of the dead, while others believed it would occur after the General Resurrection, immediately before the assumption of the just into Heaven. A third, still more moderate group of Millenarianists, which is not yet extinct, contents itself with asserting that an era of universal peace and tranquillity will precede the second coming of Christ, to be suddenly interrupted by the great apostasy and the forerunners of Anti-Christ.
2. REFUTATION OF CHILIASM.—Chiliasm in both its forms is untenable.
a) Heretical Chiliasm stands condemned in the light of the moral law, which excludes intemperance and unchastity from the kingdom of Heaven. It is blasphemous and an insult to God to assert that Christ, who is all-holy, will found an earthly paradise for libertines. No wonder even those Fathers and ecclesiastical writers who entertained Chiliastic ideas vigorously condemned this grossly sensual species of Millenarianism as heretical.
b) It is not so easy to refute the more moderate form of Chiliasm, for it seems to have a basis in Sacred Scripture and primitive Tradition.
The New Testament as well as the early creeds speak of the Resurrection of the flesh, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world in terms which make it apparent that these three events are to follow one another in close succession, leaving no time for a millennium.
α) The favorite passage of the Chiliasts is in the Apocalypse and reads as follows: “And I beheld an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.… They [i. e. the just] came to life again, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead came not to life until the thousand years were accomplished. This is the first resurrection.… And when the thousand years are accomplished, Satan shall be loosed from his prison, and he shall come forth to lead astray the nations which are in the four corners of the earth …”
This is undeniably one of the most difficult and obscure passages found in Sacred Scripture, and no one has yet succeeded in explaining it satisfactorily. But it proves nothing in favor of Millenarianism, which has no claim to our assent unless it can show that its tenets do not conflict with the general teaching of the Bible. Among the more probable interpretations of the Johannine text suggested by Catholic writers we may mention that of St. Augustine, which was adopted by Pope St. Gregory the Great. These two Fathers think that the imprisonment of Satan refers to the first coming of our Lord, and his temporary loosing to His second coming (parousia) at the reign with His saints on earth (the “first resurrection”) signifies the kingdom of Heaven, where the Blessed reign under the headship of our Lord before the “second resurrection” (i. e. the Resurrection of the flesh). Similarly, the term “first death” is applied to the separation of the body from the soul, whereas “second death” refers to eternal damnation. If this theory is correct, the number one thousand is not to be taken literally, but simply indicates an indefinite period of considerable length.
β) Despite appearances to the contrary, Chiliasm has no foundation in Tradition. Among its early advocates Lactantius, Nepos, Commodian, and Victorinus may, in the light of the Decretum Gelasianum, be set aside as worthless witnesses. The same could be said of Sulpicius Severus if he were to be reckoned among the Chiliasts, which is, however, extremely doubtful, as his extant writings contain no trace of this error. Of the remaining writers who are quoted in favor of Chiliasm we may disregard Papias because he was uncritical, and Tertullian because he was a heretic when he embraced Millenarianism. St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus, the only two remaining witnesses who are absolutely trustworthy, did not inculcate Chiliasm as an article of faith, but merely proposed it as a personal opinion. Whether St. Melito, Bishop of Sardes, harbored Millenarian notions, is uncertain. St. Hippolytus, who is numbered among the Chiliasts by Bonwetsch, has not written a single line, in the works that have come down to us, which must necessarily be interpreted in a Chiliastic sense. Bonwetsch himself is constrained to admit that Hippolytus discarded some of the eschatological notions held by Irenaeus and Tertullian.
Among the opponents of Chiliasm were Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, and Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria, whom Eusebius honored with the title of Great and St. Athanasius called a Doctor of the Catholic Church.
READINGS:—J. B. Paganini, Das Ende der Welt oder die Wiederkunft unseres Herrn, 2nd ed., Ratisbon 1882.—J. Bautz, Weltgericht und Weltende, Mayence 1886.—J. Sigmund, Das Ende der Zeiten mit einem Nachblick in die Ewigkeit, oder das Weltgericht mit seinen Ursachen, Vorzeichen und Folgen, Salzburg 1892.—J. A. McHugh in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, pp. 552 sq.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, 3 Vols., St. Louis 1910–1916, see Index s. v. “Judgment.”—St. Thomas, S. Theol., Supplem., qu. 49–91.—B. J. Otten, S. J., A Manual of the History of Dogmas, Vol. II, St. Louis 1918, pp. 422 sqq.
On Chiliasm see H. Corrodi, Kritische Geschichte des Chiliasmus, 1794.—H. Klee, De Chiliasmo Primorum Saeculorum, Mayence 1825.—Wagner, Der Chiliasmus in den ersten Jahrhunderten, 1849.—J. N. Schneider, Die chiliastische Doktrin und ihr Verhältnis zur christlichen Glaubenslehre (pro-Chiliastic), Schaffhausen 1859.—J. P. Kirsch, art. “Millennium,” in Vol. X of the Catholic Encyclopedia, pp. 307–310.—Chiapelli, Le Idee Millenarie dei Cristiani, Naples 1888.—L. Guy, Le Millénarisme dans ses Origines et son Développement, Paris 1904.—Franzelin, De Scriptura et Traditione, P. II, thes. 16, Rome 1896.—H. Kihn, Patrologie, Vol. I, pp. 120 sqq., Paderborn 1904.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, Vol. I, St. Louis 1910 (see Index s. v. “Millenarianism”).—Shirley Jackson, The Millennial Hope, Chicago 1918.
I thought Fr. Pohle's opinion would be a worthwhile addition to the discussion:Thank you very much, Emile. This was extremely helpful.
A Dogmatic Treatise
Rev. Joseph Pohle Ph.D. D.D
CHILIASM, OR MILLENARIANISM
1. CHILIASM IN ITS TWO FORMS.—There are two forms of Chiliasm or Millenarianism. The exaggerated form is heretical, while the more moderate is simply erroneous.
a) The heretical form of Chiliasm may be traced partly to the Jєωιѕн expectation of a temporal Messias and partly to the apocryphal writings of the Old Testament, which abound in fables. The Chiliasts of this school conceived the millennium as a period of unbridled sensual indulgence. Eusebius the church-historian says of Cerinthus, a Gnostic heretic who flourished towards the end of the first century: “He held that at some time in the future Christ would reign on earth; and as he was addicted to the pleasures of the flesh, he imagined that the reign of God would consist of such things.” This error was shared by the ancient Ebionites and Apollinarianists and, in a somewhat more respectable form, still persists among the Mormons and Irvingites.
b) Moderate Chiliasm had a number of adherents among Patristic writers, notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Nepos, Commodian, Victorinus of Pettau, and Lactantius. Its favorite text was Apoc. 20:1 sqq. Papias believed that the Resurrection of the flesh would be followed by a glorious reign of Christ, in which the Saints would enjoy a superabundance of earthly pleasures for a thousand years. These pleasures, however, were to be spiritual, or at least morally licit. In developing this idea its champions parted ways. Some expected the millennium between the General Judgment and the Resurrection of the dead, while others believed it would occur after the General Resurrection, immediately before the assumption of the just into Heaven. A third, still more moderate group of Millenarianists, which is not yet extinct, contents itself with asserting that an era of universal peace and tranquillity will precede the second coming of Christ, to be suddenly interrupted by the great apostasy and the forerunners of Anti-Christ.
2. REFUTATION OF CHILIASM.—Chiliasm in both its forms is untenable.
a) Heretical Chiliasm stands condemned in the light of the moral law, which excludes intemperance and unchastity from the kingdom of Heaven. It is blasphemous and an insult to God to assert that Christ, who is all-holy, will found an earthly paradise for libertines. No wonder even those Fathers and ecclesiastical writers who entertained Chiliastic ideas vigorously condemned this grossly sensual species of Millenarianism as heretical.
b) It is not so easy to refute the more moderate form of Chiliasm, for it seems to have a basis in Sacred Scripture and primitive Tradition.
The New Testament as well as the early creeds speak of the Resurrection of the flesh, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world in terms which make it apparent that these three events are to follow one another in close succession, leaving no time for a millennium.
α) The favorite passage of the Chiliasts is in the Apocalypse and reads as follows: “And I beheld an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.… They [i. e. the just] came to life again, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead came not to life until the thousand years were accomplished. This is the first resurrection.… And when the thousand years are accomplished, Satan shall be loosed from his prison, and he shall come forth to lead astray the nations which are in the four corners of the earth …”
This is undeniably one of the most difficult and obscure passages found in Sacred Scripture, and no one has yet succeeded in explaining it satisfactorily. But it proves nothing in favor of Millenarianism, which has no claim to our assent unless it can show that its tenets do not conflict with the general teaching of the Bible. Among the more probable interpretations of the Johannine text suggested by Catholic writers we may mention that of St. Augustine, which was adopted by Pope St. Gregory the Great. These two Fathers think that the imprisonment of Satan refers to the first coming of our Lord, and his temporary loosing to His second coming (parousia) at the reign with His saints on earth (the “first resurrection”) signifies the kingdom of Heaven, where the Blessed reign under the headship of our Lord before the “second resurrection” (i. e. the Resurrection of the flesh). Similarly, the term “first death” is applied to the separation of the body from the soul, whereas “second death” refers to eternal damnation. If this theory is correct, the number one thousand is not to be taken literally, but simply indicates an indefinite period of considerable length.
β) Despite appearances to the contrary, Chiliasm has no foundation in Tradition. Among its early advocates Lactantius, Nepos, Commodian, and Victorinus may, in the light of the Decretum Gelasianum, be set aside as worthless witnesses. The same could be said of Sulpicius Severus if he were to be reckoned among the Chiliasts, which is, however, extremely doubtful, as his extant writings contain no trace of this error. Of the remaining writers who are quoted in favor of Chiliasm we may disregard Papias because he was uncritical, and Tertullian because he was a heretic when he embraced Millenarianism. St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus, the only two remaining witnesses who are absolutely trustworthy, did not inculcate Chiliasm as an article of faith, but merely proposed it as a personal opinion. Whether St. Melito, Bishop of Sardes, harbored Millenarian notions, is uncertain. St. Hippolytus, who is numbered among the Chiliasts by Bonwetsch, has not written a single line, in the works that have come down to us, which must necessarily be interpreted in a Chiliastic sense. Bonwetsch himself is constrained to admit that Hippolytus discarded some of the eschatological notions held by Irenaeus and Tertullian.
Among the opponents of Chiliasm were Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, and Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria, whom Eusebius honored with the title of Great and St. Athanasius called a Doctor of the Catholic Church.
READINGS:—J. B. Paganini, Das Ende der Welt oder die Wiederkunft unseres Herrn, 2nd ed., Ratisbon 1882.—J. Bautz, Weltgericht und Weltende, Mayence 1886.—J. Sigmund, Das Ende der Zeiten mit einem Nachblick in die Ewigkeit, oder das Weltgericht mit seinen Ursachen, Vorzeichen und Folgen, Salzburg 1892.—J. A. McHugh in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, pp. 552 sq.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, 3 Vols., St. Louis 1910–1916, see Index s. v. “Judgment.”—St. Thomas, S. Theol., Supplem., qu. 49–91.—B. J. Otten, S. J., A Manual of the History of Dogmas, Vol. II, St. Louis 1918, pp. 422 sqq.
On Chiliasm see H. Corrodi, Kritische Geschichte des Chiliasmus, 1794.—H. Klee, De Chiliasmo Primorum Saeculorum, Mayence 1825.—Wagner, Der Chiliasmus in den ersten Jahrhunderten, 1849.—J. N. Schneider, Die chiliastische Doktrin und ihr Verhältnis zur christlichen Glaubenslehre (pro-Chiliastic), Schaffhausen 1859.—J. P. Kirsch, art. “Millennium,” in Vol. X of the Catholic Encyclopedia, pp. 307–310.—Chiapelli, Le Idee Millenarie dei Cristiani, Naples 1888.—L. Guy, Le Millénarisme dans ses Origines et son Développement, Paris 1904.—Franzelin, De Scriptura et Traditione, P. II, thes. 16, Rome 1896.—H. Kihn, Patrologie, Vol. I, pp. 120 sqq., Paderborn 1904.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, Vol. I, St. Louis 1910 (see Index s. v. “Millenarianism”).—Shirley Jackson, The Millennial Hope, Chicago 1918.
Cera - how about addressing my post #32 above and the issues I pose for comment by those who agree with Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer?DR, you say
DR, you say
For those who believe in the Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer version of a thousand years of earthly rule in peace for the Church when the saints will (in the future, but haven't yet) "reign with Christ a thousand years" (Apoc. 20:4)
I don't have Father Berry's book in front of me (it's lent out), but I don't remember him saying anything about the 1000 year Reign of Christ being in the future. Has anyone provided a page # for this? Like you, I side with the Church Fathers on this.
"...These prophecies will not be fulfilled before the time of Antichrist, since the Apocalypse clearly shows that he will come into a world harassed by paganism, apostacy, schism, and heresy. (Apocalypse ix, 20, 21) The Jєωs still unconverted, will accept him as Messias and assist in his warfare against the Church. Only after the defeat of Antichrist and the return of the Gentile nations to the Faith, will the Jєωs accept Christ as the true Messias. Then shall begin the universal reign of Christ over all peoples, and tribes, and tongues."
(p.192)
[4] And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Fascinating. All the more reason to hungrily anticipate the a Lapide translation.
And another reason to look into what Augustine wrote in City of God. Thanks again.
BTW, I was quite naughty on the phone with Loreto today. I asked the man if Ryan Grant were the translator. Thankfully he seemed not quite familiar with the name, and told me point blank that Grant was not the translator. LOL!!
Oh, that's funny about Ryan Grant, not being a translator.
Decem Rationis nailed it on Kramer's judaizing tendencies.
I've always suspected Fr. Kramer was a Jєω.
(https://i1.wp.com/tradcatknight.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/1-115.jpg?ssl=1)
Fr. Gruner used him for his publications, owning the 2nd largest printing factory in Canada.
The image that was the last straw for me, for taking him seriously was published around 10 years ago.
It was Fr. Kramer celebrating Mass with his sunglasses on in Father Chazal's poorly lit seminary chapel in the Philippines.
Wrong Kramer, Incred. :laugh1:
Not laughing at you. It's just . . . funny.
I suspect you know that, and that makes it even funnier if you did. Touche.
:laugh1::laugh2:
"St. Justin does not put this millennium after the General Judgment, as the Chiliasts do, but before and draws the conclusion from his own rendition of the Septuagint that there shall be no death except that of the sinner during the millenium."
"The sentence is probably to be taken in a more spiritual sense, that there is no death for the saint. The day of his departure is his eternal birthday. From a spiritual viewpoint, a saint, as Aloysius, the Little Flower, Francis of Assisi and thousands of others has reached maturity far beyond that of the greatest prophets. Though young in years, they were ripe in sanctity. During the millennium all common Christians may progress to high degrees of sanctity. The sentence, "death shall be no more", may then mean what St. Paul says: "O Death, where is the victory? O Death, where is thy sting?" In apostolic days death was looked upon as a repose. So the Acts say of St. Stephen: "He fell asleep in the Lord". In the catacombs of Rome, that inscription is found quite generally. During the millennium faith may be so lively and intense that men will consider death a transition into a happier life. Sinners may live to grow mature in sinfulness and receive their punishment not in this life but in Hell. Even now the greater anyone's faith, the less does he dread death; and those true Christians who live to a ripe old age often desire the day of death, as did St. John and St. Paul. The bereaved ones will not grieve over the death of one who lived to maturity in years and sanctity nor express it by mourning."
§ 4. Perfect Catholicity to be Attainedpp.138-139
Thesis.—The Church of Christ shall at length attain perfect catholicity, i. e., it shall finally embrace all nations and all peoples without exception
Although moral universality is sufficient to make the Church truly Catholic, the prophecies of old certainly demand something more for their adequate fulfillment; one and all announce a kingdom that shall be universal to the last degree. A few examples will make this clear: (a) “He shall ride from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth . . . and all kings of earth shall adore him; all nations shall serve him . . . And in him shall all tribes of the earth be blessed'; all nations shall magnify him.” (Ps. lxxi, 8 sq.) (b) “And all the nations thou hast made shall come and adore before thee, O Lord; and they shall glorify thy name.” (Ps. kxxv, 9) (c) "His empire shall be multiplied and there shall be no end of peace." (Is. ix, 7.) (d) “And judgment shall sit . . . that the kingdom, and power, and the greatness of the kingdom wider the whole heaven may be given to the saints of the most High; whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom and all kings shall serve him and obey him." (Dan. vii, 26, 27.) (e) “He shall speak peace to the gentiles and his power shall be from sea to sea, and from the rivers even to the ends of the earth." (Zach. ix, 10)
Prophecies such as these find no adequate fulfillment in the conversion of a few thousand, or even a few million souls among the vast pagan populations of earth. Neither can a world largely steeped in paganism, torn by schism and distracted by heresy, be the only fruit of Christ's death upon the Cross. We are forced to say with St. Augustine: "Even in the islands of the sea shall be fulfilled the word of prophecy, 'He shall rule from sea to sea," and if a prophet cannot deceive, it is necessary that all nations whatsoever He has made, shall adore Him." ("Epist. ad Hesychium," P. L., 33, 922)
Even the scattered nation of the Jews shall follow the gentiles into the Church, as St. Paul plainly states: "I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel until the fulness of the gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." (Rom. xi, 25.) Again he says of the Jєωιѕн people: “If the loss of them be the reconciliation of the world, what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead?” (Rom. xi, 15)
After the gentile nations have entered the Church, the Jews also shall submit to the faith of Christ and the Church shall be universal indeed. Then shall begin the reign of Christ in all its fullness, “from sea to sea," and all the prophecies shall be justified. This does not mean that each and every individual of every nation and tribe shall submit to the Church; nations and peoples, not individuals, have been promised to the Chinch for her inheritance. It does mean, however, that all nations, as nations, and at least the vast majority of their subjects, shall recognize the true Church of Christ and submit to her authority.
These prophecies will not be fulfilled before the time of Antichrist, since the Apocalypse makes it certain that he will come into a world harassed by paganism apostacy, schism, and heresy. (Apoc. ix, 20, 21) The Jews, still unconverted, will accept him as Messias and assist in his warfare against the Church. Only after the defeat of Antichrist and the conversion of the gentile nations, will the Jews accept Christ as Messias. According to the generally accepted opinion, this will take place shortly before the end of the world, since the coming of Antichrist is looked upon as a prelude to the consummation of all things earthly. If this be true, the universal reign of Christ would seem a failure in point of time. It certainly does not seem probable that thousands of years spent in preparation shall lead up to a universal reign of Christ lasting but a few short months, or at most, a few short years. It would be considered a mark of folly in a human society to labor for years building itself up to the point where it could most effectively carry out its programme, and then disband. Are we not accusing Christ of like folly if we suppose He will in like manner bring the earthly career of His Church to an end almost immediately upon attaining the state in which it can perfectly carry out its mission?
It seems far more probable that the period of fruition will at least equal, and perhaps even exceed, the period of preparation, and therefore that many centuries will intervene between the destruction of Antichrist and the end of the world. The progressive character of the Church in her extension has already been noted. Beginning at Jerusalem, she spread with miraculous rapidity, extending her limits ever farther and farther with the passing centuries, yet all the while the gates of hell were struggling to prevent it. The Church has been forced to wage unceasing war upon her enemies. Judaism assailed her in infancy; then followed, in succession, Arianism, Islamism, the Greek schism, the pseudo-Reformation of the sixteenth century, and Rationalism in the eighteenth. Today she is warring against indifferentism and the denial of all religion. The "mystery of iniquity," mentioned by St. Paul, (2 Thess. ii, 7) grows apace with the spread of the Church, and will culminate in the coming of Antichrist, when Satan will make a last supreme effort to prevent the universal reign of Christ in His Church. After a short but desperate struggle, the Church will emerge victorious, Antichrist will perish, and the powers of Satan will be curbed, so "that he should no more seduce the nations." (Apoc. xx, 3.)
After the defeat and destruction of Antichrist, all nations will flow into the Church, the Jews will enter her fold, and the universal reign of Christ will be established over all peoples, tribes, and tongues. Then shall the words of Christ be literally and completely fulfilled: “I have overcome the world.” (John xvi, 33.) After a long period of time, symbolically designated as a thousand years, (Apoc. xx, 2, 3.) "Satan shall be loosed out of his prison , and shall go forth to seduce the nations which are over the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, and shall gather them together to battle” (Apoc. xx, 7.) for a final persecution of the Church. By special intervention of God, these hostile nations shall be quickly defeated and the Church shall stand forth once more victorious. Then will the day of judgment be near at hand. [see footnote]
Cf. Berry, "The Apocalypse of St. John," pp.189 sq. - The interpretation of the prophecies regarding the time of Antichrist and subsequent events is given as an opinion to be accepted for what it is worth. So far as we know, there is no pronouncement of the Church on this question. In fact, no doctrine is involved. It is generally held by Catholic theologians that the Church will be completely Catholic after the days of Antichrist. This doctrine is not materially affected by the further consideration concerning the time of his appearance. This is merely an interesting speculation, of which the above solution seems probable to us. It might be objected that Christ Himself places the end of the world immediately after the attainment of complete Catholicity by the Church: "This gospel shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Matt. xxiv, 14.) And St. Paul connects the coming of Antichrist with the second coming of Christ. "And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus . . . shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." (2 Thess. ii, 8.) Neither objection has any weight; in the first Our Lord was simply assuring the Apostles that there would be sufficient time to carry the gospel to all nations, since, the consummation will not come until that has been accomplished. He does not say that it will come immediately upon its accomplishment. In the other case, we see no reason why "his coming" -παρουία- must be taken to mean the personal coming of Our Lord at the last day, rather than a metaphorical coming in manifest judgment against Antichrist.
Pohle's "third, still more moderate group of Millennialists," which hold that "an era of universal peace and tranquillity will precede the second coming of Christ" could appear to have some similarity to Berry and Kramer's opinion, but that group is said to hold to an era that is "suddenly interrupted by the great apostasy and the forerunners of Anti-Christ," whereas Kramer and Berry place their universal reign of Christ (through the Church) after Antichrist, and before the Second Coming. The difference is also seen in how Fr. Pohle refutes this moderate Millennialism, which he says is not easily refuted, and seems to have a basis in Scripture and primitive Tradition. His refutation of this moderate Millennialism is that the New Testament and early creeds make it apparent that the Resurrection, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world "follow one another in close succession, leaving no time for a millennium." It's apparent that the interruption of this succession is something essential to what he describes as moderate Millennialism. This isn't descriptive of Kramer and Berry's opinion, as their opinion doesn't entail an interruption of that succession, since they place the universal reign of Christ prior to all three events, not after any of them.
Regarding this statement quoted in the OP: "...there shall be no death except that of the sinner, during the millenium...", Fr. Kramer says this is just to be taken in the spiritual sense, "that there is no death for the saint":
In "The Church of Christ" (1927), Fr. Berry summarizes his opinion, which is substantively the same as Fr. Kramer's.
pp.138-139
City of God, Book XX, Chap. 13
Chapter 13.—Whether the Time of the Persecution or Antichrist Should Be Reckoned in the Thousand Years.
This last persecution by Antichrist shall last for three years and six months, as we have already said, and as is affirmed both in the book of Revelation and by Daniel the prophet. Though this time is brief, yet not without reason is it questioned whether it is comprehended in the thousand years in which the devil is bound and the saints reign with Christ, or whether this little season should be added over and above to these years. For if we say that they are included in the thousand years, then the saints reign with Christ during a more protracted period than the devil is bound. For they shall reign with their King and Conqueror mightily even in that crowning persecution when the devil shall now be unbound and shall rage against them with all his might. How then does Scripture define both the binding of the devil and the reign of the saints by the same thousand years, if the binding of the devil ceases three years and six months before this reign of the saints with Christ? On the other hand, if we say that the brief space of this persecution is not to be reckoned as a part of the thousand years, but rather as an additional period, we shall indeed be able to interpret the words, “The priests of God and of Christ shall reign with Him a thousand years; and when the thousand years shall be finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison;” for thus they signify that the reign of the saints and the bondage of the devil shall cease simultaneously, so that the time of the persecution we speak of should be contemporaneous neither with the reign of the saints nor with the imprisonment of Satan, but should be reckoned over and above as a superadded portion of time. But then in this case we are forced to admit that the saints shall not reign with Christ during that persecution. But who can dare to say that His members shall not reign with Him at that very juncture when they shall most of all, and with the greatest fortitude, cleave to Him, and when the glory of resistance and the crown of martyrdom shall be more conspicuous in proportion to the hotness of the battle? Or if it is suggested that they may be said not to reign, because of the tribulations which they shall suffer, it will follow that all the saints who have formerly, during the thousand years, suffered tribulation, shall not be said to have reigned with Christ during the period of their tribulation, and consequently even those whose souls the author of this book says that he saw, and who were slain for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, did not reign with Christ when they were suffering persecution, and they were not themselves the kingdom of Christ, though Christ was then pre-eminently possessing them. This is indeed perfectly absurd, and to be scouted. But assuredly the victorious souls of the glorious martyrs having overcome and finished all griefs and toils, and having laid down their mortal members, have reigned and do reign with Christ till the thousand years are finished, that they may afterwards reign with Him when they have received their immortal bodies. And therefore during these three years and a half the souls of those who were slain for His testimony, both those which formerly passed from the body and those which shall pass in that last persecution, shall reign with Him till the mortal world come to an end, and pass into that kingdom in which there shall be no death. And thus the reign of the saints with Christ shall last longer than the bonds and imprisonment of the devil, because they shall reign with their King the Son of God for these three years and a half during which the devil is no longer bound. It remains, therefore, that when we read that “the priests of God and of Christ shall reign with Him a thousand years; and when the thousand years are finished, the devil shall be loosed from his imprisonment,” that we understand either that the thousand years of the reign of the saints does not terminate, though the imprisonment of the devil does,—so that both parties have their thousand years, that is, their complete time, yet each with a different actual duration approriate to itself, the kingdom of the saints being longer, the imprisonment of the devil shorter, —or at least that, as three years and six months is a very short time, it is not reckoned as either deducted from the whole time of Satan’s imprisonment, or as added to the whole duration of the reign of the saints, as we have shown above in the sixteenth book[ 508 ] regarding the round number of four hundred years, which were specified as four hundred, though actually somewhat more; and similar expressions are often found in the sacred writings, if one will mark them.
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 3339-3341). Kindle Edition.
And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should no more seduce the nations, till the thousand years be finished. And after that, he must be loosed a little time.
For then shall Satan be loosed, and by means of that Antichrist shall work with all power in a lying though a wonderful manner.
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3356). Kindle Edition.
City of God, Book XX, Chap. 23
Chapter 23.—What Daniel Predicted Regarding the Persecution of Antichrist, the Judgment of God, and the Kingdom of the Saints.
Daniel prophesies of the last judgment in such a way as to indicate that Antichrist shall first come, and to carry on his description to the eternal reign of the saints. For when in prophetic vision he had seen four beasts, signifying four kingdoms, and the fourth conquered by a certain king, who is recognized as Antichrist, and after this the eternal kingdom of the Son of man, that is to say, of Christ, he says, “My spirit was terrified, I Daniel in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me,”( Dan. vii. 15–28 . Passage cited at length. ) etc. Some have interpreted these four kingdoms as signifying those of the Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians, and Romans. They who desire to understand the fitness of this interpretation may read Jerome’s book on Daniel, which is written with a sufficiency of care and erudition. But he who reads this passage, even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints. For it is patent from the context that the time, times, and half a time , means a year, and two years, and half a year, that is to say, three years and a half.
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3371). Kindle Edition.
Prophecies such as these find no adequate fulfillment in the conversion of a few thousand, or even a few million souls among the vast pagan populations of earth. Neither can a world largely steeped in paganism, torn by schism and distracted by heresy, be the only fruit of Christ's death upon the Cross.
Joe Cupertino said: The opinion of Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer is notably different from what Fr. Pohle describes as Chiliasm and moderate Chiliasm. Berry and Kramer's opinion is that Christ and the saints will reign through the Church between the time of Antichrist and the Second Coming, not, as the Chiliasts hold, that they will physically reign on Earth during that time. Berry and Kramer's opinion also don't include Christ as a temporal Messias. Pohle's "third, still more moderate group of Millennialists," which hold that "an era of universal peace and tranquillity will precede the second coming of Christ" could appear to have some similarity to Berry and Kramer's opinion, but that group is said to hold to an era that is "suddenly interrupted by the great apostasy and the forerunners of Anti-Christ," whereas Kramer and Berry place their universal reign of Christ (through the Church) after Antichrist, and before the Second Coming.
The difference is also seen in how Fr. Pohle refutes this moderate Millennialism, which he says is not easily refuted, and seems to have a basis in Scripture and primitive Tradition. His refutation of this moderate Millennialism is that the New Testament and early creeds make it apparent that the Resurrection, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world "follow one another in close succession, leaving no time for a millennium." It's apparent that the interruption of this succession is something essential to what he describes as moderate Millennialism. This isn't descriptive of Kramer and Berry's opinion, as their opinion doesn't entail an interruption of that succession, since they place the universal reign of Christ prior to all three events, not after any of them.
Joe Cupertino said: In "The Church of Christ" (1927), Fr. Berry summarizes his opinion, which is substantively the same as Fr. Kramer's.
§ 4. Perfect Catholicity to be Attained
Thesis.—The Church of Christ shall at length attain perfect catholicity, i. e., it shall finally embrace all nations and all peoples without exception
Although moral universality is sufficient to make the Church truly Catholic, the prophecies of old certainly demand something more for their adequate fulfillment; one and all announce a kingdom that shall be universal to the last degree. A few examples will make this clear: (a) “He shall rule from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth . . . and all kings of earth shall adore him; all nations shall serve him . . . And in him shall all tribes of the earth be blessed'; all nations shall magnify him.” (Ps. lxxi, 8 sq.) (b) “And all the nations thou hast made shall come and adore before thee, O Lord; and they shall glorify thy name.” (Ps. kxxv, 9) (c) "His empire shall be multiplied and there shall be no end of peace." (Is. ix, 7.) (d) “And judgment shall sit . . . that the kingdom, and power, and the greatness of the kingdom wider the whole heaven may be given to the saints of the most High; whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom and all kings shall serve him and obey him." (Dan. vii, 26, 27.) (e) “He shall speak peace to the gentiles and his power shall be from sea to sea, and from the rivers even to the ends of the earth." (Zach. ix, 10)
Prophecies such as these find no adequate fulfillment in the conversion of a few thousand, or even a few million souls among the vast pagan populations of earth. Neither can a world largely steeped in paganism, torn by schism and distracted by heresy, be the only fruit of Christ's death upon the Cross. We are forced to say with St. Augustine: "Even in the islands of the sea shall be fulfilled the word of prophecy, 'He shall rule from sea to sea," and if a prophet cannot deceive, it is necessary that all nations whatsoever He has made, shall adore Him." ("Epist. ad Hesychium," P. L., 33, 922)
Second Point: Fr. Berry articulates what I would be so bold as to qualify as the authentic eschatological sensus catolicus, and categorically not “Catholic utopianism.”
I think we must dissolve this point from the question of timeline. Will the Church rule from sea to sea before the end of the world? Forget, for a time, the question of when in relation to both antichrist and the Dies Irae. Simply this: Will the Roman Catholic Church reign in the whole earth sometime before the end of the world? I firmly believe She will, with what I hope is real Catholic faith.
I haven’t had a chance to study the passages from St. Augustine that Decem recommends so highly. But I will ask you, Decem, if you can point to specific passages of St. Augustine that explicitly refute the essential point asserted by Fr. Berry; namely that the Church will enjoy universal possession of the earth sometime before the end of the world. Fr. Berry himself quoted St. Augustine in his demonstration. It seems to me that the passages you have thus far provided relate to the question of antichrist and timeline, rather than to the more simple question of a coming universal reign and dominion of the Church.
Simeon,I think that the question of a coming universal reign of the Church - dissolved from the subject of antichrist and timeline - is absolutely essential, given the protestant revolt and Vatican II.
Thank you for your input. More than happy to continue the discussion. Iron sharpens iron.
St Augustine wrote about 1500 or 1600 years before Fr. Berry and obviously wasn't concerned with addressing his position, so I'd need to patch together the gist of his argument from City of God to demonstrate how they conflict, and I think I've been doing that, and I'll try to do better.
The timeline exposes the errors of Fr. Berry. The pieces have to be put together, so it's not simply a single sentence or so from St. Augustine . . . at least I haven't found it yet, but I'll stay at it.
DR
I think that the question of a coming universal reign of the Church - dissolved from the subject of antichrist and timeline - is absolutely essential, given the protestant revolt and Vatican II.
I would go so far as to assert that the "when and in what order" questions of antichrist and timeline are lower in priority than the "if" question about the future universal reign.
I sense that the fact that these questions are not properly severed for the purpose of analysis, causes a general confusion and conflation of ideas in the minds of Catholics, absolutely blasted by Vatican II and perfectly mystified by Fatima.
In the rational order, "if" comes first, then "when."
I sense that the fact that these questions are not properly severed for the purpose of analysis, causes a general confusion and conflation of ideas in the minds of Catholics, absolutely blasted by Vatican II and perfectly mystified by Fatima.
Decem,
Daily life is calling me away. I cannot reply now to your last post. I'm almost finished with spiritual reading, and I have come upon this text in Apocalypse 5:9-10:
And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.
Does Augustine interpret this passage?
Therefore the Church even now is the kingdom of Christ, and the kingdom of heaven. Accordingly, even now His saints reign with Him, though otherwise than as they shall reign hereafter;
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3330). Kindle Edition.
City of God, Book XX, Chap. 9
But while the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the same thousand years, understood in the same way, that is, of the time of His first coming.[ 506 ] For, leaving out of account that kingdom concerning which He shall say in the end, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, take possession of the kingdom prepared for you,”( Matt. xxv. 34 . ) the Church could not now be called His kingdom or the kingdom of heaven unless His saints were even now reigning with Him, though in another and far different way; for to His saints He says, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world.”( Matt. xxviii. 20 . )
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3329). Kindle Edition.
For, after saying that the devil is bound a thousand years and is afterwards loosed for a short season, it goes on to give a sketch of what the Church does or of what is done in the Church in those days, in the words, “And I saw seats and them that sat upon them, and judgment was given.” It is not to be supposed that this refers to the last judgment, but to the seats of the rulers and to the rulers themselves by whom the Church is now governed. And no better interpretation of judgment being given can be produced than that which we have in the words, “What ye bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”( Matt. xviii. 18 . ) Whence the apostle says, “What have I to do with judging them that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?”( 1 Cor. v. 12 . ) “And the souls,” says John, “of those who were slain for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God,”—understanding what he afterwards says, “reigned with Christ a thousand years,”( Rev. xx. 4 . )—that is, the souls of the martyrs not yet restored to their bodies. For the souls of the pious dead are not separated from the Church, which even now is the kingdom of Christ; otherwise there would be no remembrance made of them at the altar of God in the partaking of the body of Christ, nor would it do any good in danger to run to His baptism, that we might not pass from this life without it; nor to reconciliation, if by penitence or a bad conscience any one may be severed from His body. For why are these things practised, if not because the faithful, even though dead, are His members? Therefore, while these thousand years run on, their souls reign with Him, though not as yet in conjunction with their bodies. And therefore in another part of this same book we read, “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth and now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works do follow them.”( Rev. xiv. 13 . ) The Church, then, begins its reign with Christ now in the living and in the dead. For, as the apostle says, “Christ died that He might be Lord both of the living and of the dead.”( Rom. xiv. 9 . ) But he mentioned the souls of the martyrs only, because they who have contended even to death for the truth, themselves principally reign after death; but, taking the part for the whole, we understand the words of all others who belong to the Church, which is the kingdom of Christ.
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 3331-3332). Kindle Edition.
Ver. 10. And hast made us to our God, &c. See 1 Pet. ii. 5, 9. Wi. — All Christians may justly be styled kings and priests of God, by the spiritual empire they possess over their passions and the world; and by the continual offering they make on the altar of their hearts, by means of the prayers they daily offer up to God. Origen. — Thus they say, we shall reign on the earth by the empire we shall exercise over our passions; and by the union we shall have with Jesus Christ and his Church, triumph over all who have persecuted us. Estius. Andræas.
Prophecies such as these find no adequate fulfillment in the conversion of a few thousand, or even a few million souls among the vast pagan populations of earth. Neither can a world largely steeped in paganism, torn by schism and distracted by heresy, be the only fruit of Christ's death upon the Cross.
The Church expanded and grew in vigour, in strength, and in power, in proportion as the heathen Empire of Rome strove to extinguish and to destroy it. And this mighty conflict between the two sovereignties at last ended in the conversion of the empire to Christianity, and, therefore, in the enthronement of the Church of God in a supremacy over the powers of the whole world. Then right had power and supremacy over might, and the Divine authority prevailed over the authority of man; then these two powers were blended and fused together: they became one great authority, the emperor ruling from his throne within the sphere of his earthly jurisdiction, and the Supreme Pontiff ruling likewise from a throne of higher sovereignty over the nations of the world, until God in His providence removed the empire from Rome, and planted it upon the shores of the Bosphorus.
Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition.
. . . but about the seventh century it was firmly established, and that which the Divine Providence had prepared from the beginning received its full manifestation; and no sooner was the material power which once reigned in Rome consecrated and sanctified by the investiture of the Vicar of Jesus Christ with temporal sovereignty over the city where he dwelt, than he began to create throughout Europe the order of Christian civilisation, Christian empires, Christian monarchies, which, confederated together, have maintained the peace and order of the world from that hour to this. What we call Christendom, that is to say, the great family of Christian nations, Christian races organised and knit together with their princes and their legislatures, by international law, mutual contracts, treaties, diplomacy, and the like, which bind them together in one compact body,—what is this but the security of the world against disorder, turbulence, and lawlessness? And now for these twelve hundred years the peace, the perpetuity, and the fruitfulness of the Christian civilisation of Europe, has been owing solely in its principle to this consecration of the power and the authority of the great Empire of Rome, taken up of old, perpetuated, preserved, as I have said, by the salt which had been sprinkled from heaven and continued in the person of the Supreme Pontiff, and in that order of Christian civilisation of which he has been the creator.
Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition.
In "The Church of Christ" (1927), Fr. Berry summarizes his opinion, which is substantively the same as Fr. Kramer's.
pp.138-139
I was reading Cardinal's Manning's The Present Crisis of the Holy See this morning, and found relevant to this topic a comparison of the comments of Fr. Berry (see also my screenshot from pages 191-92 of his book in post 41 above) -Hi Decem,
- and his view that the Church has failed to conquer the world and not yet fulfilled Biblical prophecies about its "conquering the world" with the following observations of Cardinal Manning:
The heyday has been passed for the kingdom on this earth in its current manifestation, and we await the greater and more glorious fulfillment of the final transformation.
DR
Simeon: I think that the question of a coming universal reign of the Church - dissolved from the subject of antichrist and timeline - is absolutely essential, given the protestant revolt and Vatican II …. I sense that the fact that these questions are not properly severed for the purpose of analysis, causes a general confusion and conflation of ideas in the minds of Catholics, absolutely blasted by Vatican II and perfectly mystified by Fatima. In the rational order, "if" comes first, then "when."
Decem: Is the Antichrist associated with the Great Apostasy or not?
Simeon: Categorically, yes.
Decem: The Antichrist and the Great Apostasy set the stage for the Second Coming, not for a "coming universal reign" on earth.
Simeon: I concede your statement to be correct. In fact, my intuitive sense is that the universal reign will precede the Great Apostasy and the antichrist; precisely because a Great Apostasy occurring subsequent to the outpouring of prodigious grace necessary to usher in the universal reign, will MERIT the antichrist. I believe it can be cogently argued that mankind has not quite yet merited the man of sin by its wickedness and infidelity. The antichrist will be a Divine judgment and chastisement for a universal apostasy. I think it can be argued that thus far only Europe has truly apostatized.
Now Fr. Michael DeSaye of MHT (and I think all the clergy of MHT) hold that we are now in the Great Apostasy. Fr. DeSaye recently gave a sermon on the topic. I beg to differ with them, admitting, of course, that they may be correct, and I incorrect.
Decem: Nay, the confusion is caused by severing the connection between the Antichrist, the Great Apostasy, the Second Coming and Last Judgment to create an intervening 1,000 year reign or Millennium that has nothing in common with the Biblical reference to it in the Apocalypse of St. John, and, as I've argued and I think demonstrated in this thread, contradicts it.
Simeon: I don’t think you are throwing out a strawman here, because you are criticizing Kramer’s/Berry’s millenarianism. I am positing the idea of a future universal reign of the Church before the end of the world – and before the Great Apostasy. I am not espousing the Kramer/Berry thesis, nor any thousand year reign. I would not be surprised if what I envision lasts mere decades. I simply do not believe that Vatican II marks the ultimate defeat and permanent eclipse of the Church Militant.
It is logically necessary to dissolve the question of a future universal reign from the question of the Great Apostasy/antichrist/timeline, in order to sever the question of a future universal reign from the taint of millenariansim. I’m trying to un-do the conflation that has materialized.
Decem: The Berry and Kramer view is a late Nineteenth and early Twentieth century resurrection in a modified form of rejected Millennial thinking, and we saw the same thing around the same time in the Prots with their rapture eschatology and modified versions of Millennialist or Chiliast thinking. And their view is far from the sensus catholicus, very far from it.
Simeon: Again, I must give you the benefit of the doubt on the strawman. I did not affirm that the Berry/Kramer thesis is the “authentic eschatological sensus catolicus.” I made it my business to sever the millenarianism from what I intended to signify. I explicitly said, “And by this I do not mean [their] opinions about the Jєωs and the antichrist and the timeline. I mean a coming universal reign of the Church on earth.”
I really would like to look at this question apart from both millenarianism and the timeline, et.al…..
4. Now, if I am obliged to enter somewhat into the future, I shall confine myself to tracing out a very general outline. The direct tendency of all the events we see at this moment is clearly this, to overthrow Catholic worship throughout the world. Already we see that every Government in Europe is excluding religion from its public acts.
Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition.
When, I ask, was the Church of God ever in a weaker condition, in a feebler state in the eyes of men, and in this natural order, than it is now? And from whence, I ask, is deliverance to come? Is there on earth any power to intervene? Is there any king, prince, or potentate, that has the power to interpose either his will or his sword for the protection of the Church? Not one; and it is foretold it should be so. Neither need we desire it, for the will of God seems to be otherwise. But there is One Power which will destroy all antagonists; there is One Person who will break down and smite small as the dust of the summer threshing-floor all the enemies of the Church, for it is He who will consume His enemies “with the Spirit of His mouth,” and destroy them “with the brightness of His coming.” It seems as if the Son of God were jealous lest anyone should vindicate His authority. He has claimed the battle to Himself; He has taken up the gage which has been cast down against Him; and prophecy is plain and explicit that the last overthrow of evil will be His; that it will be wrought by no man, but by the Son of God; that all the nations of the world may know that He, and He alone, is King, and that He, and He alone, is God.
Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition.
Decem,
Could the Berry/Kramer view have been shaped in some way by Fatima, rather than by protestants?
And what was Our Lady intimating, when She asked for the consecration of Russia? What did God, by this collegial act, intend to bring about in the world?
Decem: Is the Antichrist associated with the Great Apostasy or not?
Simeon: Categorically, yes.
Decem: The Antichrist and the Great Apostasy set the stage for the Second Coming, not for a "coming universal reign" on earth.
Simeon: I concede your statement to be correct. In fact, my intuitive sense is that the universal reign will precede the Great Apostasy and the antichrist; precisely because a Great Apostasy occurring subsequent to the outpouring of prodigious grace necessary to usher in the universal reign, will MERIT the antichrist. I believe it can be cogently argued that mankind has not quite yet merited the man of sin by its wickedness and infidelity. The antichrist will be a Divine judgment and chastisement for a universal apostasy. I think it can be argued that thus far only Europe has truly apostatized.
Now Fr. Michael DeSaye of MHT (and I think all the clergy of MHT) hold that we are now in the Great Apostasy. Fr. DeSaye recently gave a sermon on the topic. I beg to differ with them, admitting, of course, that they may be correct, and I incorrect.
City of God, Book XVIII, Chap. 23
Truly Jesus Himself shall extinguish by His presence that last persecution which is to be made by Antichrist. For so it is written, that “He shall slay him with the breath of His mouth, and empty him with the brightness of His presence.”( Isa. xi. 4; 2 Thess. i. 9 . )
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3226). Kindle Edition.
Simeon,Decem,
As you know, I believe the Berry/Kramer view should be prima facie rejected on the basis of their misreading of, and contradiction with, the 1,000 year Millenium of Apoc. 20.
As to your view of a period of restoration or peace after the Antichrist where the Church achieves some kind of universal acceptance which you believe hitherto lacking, though I disagree with you (since the universal acceptance is not measured in "nations" or some such numbers game, but the availability of salvation to all people in Christ - Jєω, Gentile, male, female, etc. - and has been achieved in accomplished spread of the Gospel by the Church) - I think you could formulate an argument in terms of the 45 day period after the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel in Daniel 12. I've quoted Haydock on this passage here:
The Novus Ordo and Daniel's 1290 and 1345 days - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)
(https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/the-novus-ordo-and-daniel's-1290-and-1345-days/new/#new)
Decem,
I want to thank you for being such a gentleman. It's been a pleasure discussing this with you.
You have misunderstood me. I am not saying I think that there is going to be something like a universal reign of the Church after antichrist. I am saying I think it might be before he comes.
What are your thoughts on Fatima? Is our Lord going to give something to the Church and world before antichrist? The apparitions of Our Lady, coupled with Catholic prophecy on the three days of darkness, make me think there is going to be a flowering of Christianity all over the earth, before the antichrist comes.
Lastly, I started a thread asking a simple question, which Plenus Venter was kind enough to reply to. Is Vatican II going to last until the end of time? Will antichrist come while Vatican II is still going strong?
Well, Decem, I think I understand you now. Very good distinction you make about the reign of Christ on earth not being about nations but about the Elect whom the Father has given to the Son. I know this is absolutely true, whether you are correct or I am correct on the question now in dispute.
Thank you, Simeon.
I guess the problem I have with the "universal reign" coming before is that implicit in that is the assumption that the universal reign hasn't come yet - I believe it has, and I think Cardinal Manning and St. Augustine would agree with me. The Church conquered the Roman empire and has gone about preaching the Gospel throughout the world. This is not about nations, but about God the Trinity reaching those whom the Father gave to His Son to save and then redeems through the action of the Holy Ghost, the elect. John 6:37, 39, 65 etc.
And the spiral is downward, to the Antichrist. There are two many signs, for me, that this is the Great Apostasy. I think Scripture, backed by the interpretation of St. Augustine, says the Great Apostasy is the time of Antichrist, and it ends with the Second Coming.
So I see no place for a universal reign as you understand it by virtue of the Great Apostasy being here now and your understanding of "universal reign" being different than my understanding.
Fatima perplexes me. I have no firm opinions on it, and would not speculate on such a huge topic without feeling some solid foundation under me, and I'm not standing on such in my thinking on it.
I view the Great Monarch and the "three days of darkness" as the Catholic equivalent of the Jєωιѕн fables referred to in Titus 1:14. I mean no offense, but that's my individual and perhaps non-persuasive opinion.
Well, Decem, I think I understand you now. Very good distinction you make about the reign of Christ on earth not being about nations but about the Elect whom the Father has given to the Son. I know this is absolutely true, whether you are correct or I am correct on the question now in dispute.
Your belief that we are now in the Great Apostasy is perfectly reasonable, and backed up by much evidence; and it explains why you must reject the idea of some future universal reign of Christ through the Church. Many traditional priests and faithful believe we are in the Great Apostasy; nor do I insist that I am correct in surmising that this is "a" great apostasy, rather than "the" Great Apostasy. Time will tell.
We are in perfect accord, however, on this point: from the Great Apostasy to the antichrist to the Second Coming. Period.
I do not subscribe to millenarianism.
Fatima is the very reason I do subscribe to my sense of things. I believe it is an intervening cause, to the extent that Augustine and other commentators must be considered in its light. Most certainly, Fatima can be interpreted to signify that we are indeed in the time of the Great Apostasy and antichrist. But there are other interpretations, which turn on the significance of the Miracle of the Sun, and our Lady's promise to the Church if Her requests were granted.
I believe that what God intended to give to the world without a great chastisement, is an eternal disposition. He will give it, but now only after the chastisement. My sense of things is that Vatican II is the great chastisement. If there is some coming purification of the Church and the world, a la the three days of darkness, it will be the mercy of God after the great chastisement of Vatican II. The wars, the miseries, the murder of countless babies, the satanic culture of porn, witchcraft, and sodomy, the destruction of innocence etc, etc - are all the fallout from Vatican II.
I hold your opinions to be of the same value as mine. And I am happy to have had this exchange with you. God bless you!
This playlist disputes some of the evidence on the Three Days of Darkness in Scripture, from Anna Maria Taigi and others:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buX-0V2o9h4&list=PLB9wsq--mkdMZy7lapuLUI0F6qwbUrRVO&index=5
However, there is a good deal of evidence that China and Bill Gates and MIT and others have developed technology to block out the sun.
Since we have a fake Sr Lucy, fake consecration, and fake third secret, it wouldn't be out of the question for the powers that shouldn't be to fake a miracle of the sun and the Three Days of Darkness.
Thank you, Simeon.
I guess the problem I have with the "universal reign" coming before is that implicit in that is the assumption that the universal reign hasn't come yet - I believe it has, and I think Cardinal Manning and St. Augustine would agree with me. The Church conquered the Roman empire and has gone about preaching the Gospel throughout the world. This is not about nations, but about God the Trinity reaching those whom the Father gave to His Son to save and then redeems through the action of the Holy Ghost, the elect. John 6:37, 39, 65 etc.
And the spiral is downward, to the Antichrist. There are two many signs, for me, that this is the Great Apostasy. I think Scripture, backed by the interpretation of St. Augustine, says the Great Apostasy is the time of Antichrist, and it ends with the Second Coming.
So I see no place for a universal reign as you understand it by virtue of the Great Apostasy being here now and your understanding of "universal reign" being different than my understanding.
Fatima perplexes me. I have no firm opinions on it, and would not speculate on such a huge topic without feeling some solid foundation under me, and I'm not standing on such in my thinking on it.
I view the Great Monarch and the "three days of darkness" as the Catholic equivalent of the Jєωιѕн fables referred to in Titus 1:14. I mean no offense, but that's my individual and perhaps non-persuasive opinion.
The problem I fear is that because of the books mentioned in this thread along with the prophecies in the Yves DuPont book and the Fatima shenanigans going on is that
many good Catholics are convinced that there absolutely will be an era of peace, the Reign of Mary, before the arrival of the Antichrist.
Many are convinced we are wrong to be on the lookout for the Antichrist.
Well, we don't know the timeline for certain,
but the powers that shouldn't be know all about Catholic prophecies and and have used them to mislead well meaning Catholics before. Medjugorje is just one example
They misuse Padre Pio and Faustina and many saints and mystics to deceive the elect. (See the playlist posted above on the false attribution of the Three Days of Darkness prophecies to them)
The plans for the nwo One World Religion
(Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ/Theosophy/Noahide)
are over a century old so planting seeds of false prophecies along the way to bring it about only makes sense.
The Antichrist will appear as an angel of light so as to fool the elect and will usher in "an era of peace" (before sudden destruction).
The Theosophists at the UN and the Freemasons can honestly say they want to lead everyone to join in saying prayers for the
Coming of Christ
Christ is King
Jesus is King
Mary, the Mother of Jesus is our WORLD MOTHER!
World-MotherFor the Theosophical journal see The World-Mother (periodical) (https://theosophy.wiki/en/The_World-Mother_(periodical))
That is the truth which lies behind the Roman Catholic doctrine of her Assumption; not that she was carried up into heaven among the Angels in her physical body, but that when she left that body she took her place among the Angels, and being presently appointed to the office of World-Mother she became very truly a queen among them, as the Church so poetically says. A great Deva needs no physical body; but while she holds her present office she will always appear to us in feminine form, as will those Adepts who have chosen to help her in her work.[10]
(https://theosophy.wiki/en/World-Mother#cite_note-10)https://theosophy.wiki/en/World-Mother#Mother_Mary
Theosophy is the New Age religion of the United Nations and invokes many Catholic sounding ideas such as:
Logos Rising
Ascended Masters including
St Germain
St Francis of Assisi
JP II
Mother Theresa
St Therese of Lisieux
and many other saints.
I've posted this elsewhere but if you haven't seen it, please take a moment to watch Michael Flynn lead the MAGA folks in a Luciferian "prayer" to St Michael the Archangel:
2min 20sec
https://www.bitchute.com/video/v1m94hzC06L2/
You can see the large image of Jesus behind Elizabeth Clare Prophet.
After WWIII and other calamities we know are coming our way, people will be desperate for peace and will be willing to make concessions to their Catholic Faith if a leader offers something that sounds
CLOSE ENOUGH
That is why we have to stay on our toes and call out all occasions of Ecuмanism, Indifferentism, Syncretism etc.
even if the leader appears to be a wonderful Traditional Catholic prelate who says Latin Mass like Vigano and Benedict.
Ver. 1. Heaven. By heaven here is meant, the air, the lowest of the heavenly regions, (Ch). through which he was carried by the ministry of angels, who directed the storm, (H.) to the place designed for him. --- It is generally supposed to be Paradise, (C.) whither Henoch had been translated. H. --- They are still living, (C.) and must come again, to invite all to repent. After which they will die martyrs, in the persecution of Antichrist. H. --- See S. Aug. de Gen. ad lit. ix. 6. et Apoc. xi. W. --- Eccli. xlviii. 10. M. --- They are a proof of a future resurrection. C. --- To decide where the paradise which they inhabit, (H.) is situated. would be rash. S. Chrys. hom. 21. in Gen. &c. Some suppose it is still in some unknown region of the earth: others place it above the sky, (M.) or in the bosom of Abraham. C. --- The Jєωs (ap. Munster) assert that Elias penetrated the sphere of fire, where his body was consumed. Vat. --- The earthly paradise is very probably no longer existing, in its ancient luxuriant state. H. --- It may now be covered with the waters of the Persian Gulf. Worthington.
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/untitled-349.shtml#navPoint_350
The problem I fear is that because of the books mentioned in this thread along with the prophecies in the Yves DuPont book and the Fatima shenanigans going on is that
many good Catholics are convinced that there absolutely will be an era of peace, the Reign of Mary, before the arrival of the Antichrist.
Many are convinced we are wrong to be on the lookout for the Antichrist.
In any case, there's a huge amount of Catholic prophecy about a period of peace before Antichrist, a Reign of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and a Triumph of the Church -- way too much to dismiss.
On a separate topic, just last week, the thought occurred to me, in connection with Flat Earth, about why the deception. Of course, it would be more difficult to deny God in a Flat Earth system. But then it also occurred to me, as I hold that the Antichrist will present himself as an alien, if we live on a Flat Earth covered by a firmament, then they could hardly pull off the whole alien stunt. How did said "aliFlaen" get through the firmament? And if there's no deep outer space with planets and starts out there, the entire ruse falls apart. But I'll make a separate post about that.
But then it also occurred to me, as I hold that the Antichrist will present himself as an alien, if we live on a Flat Earth covered by a firmament, then they could hardly pull off the whole alien stunt.
Who do you want to cite for the "Triumph of the Church" in your sense? Fr. Berry? Fr. Kramer? Your new to this thread, but I think there's far too much evidence to not dismiss it. It's been discussed thoroughly here.
And . . . the Church has already triumphed. Some of us have a different understanding of "triumph." This has been discussed in this thread too - e.g. read my post #57 with the quotes from Cardinal Manning.
No, Trump is not the Antichrist. :laugh1:
We don't need to be "on the lookout" for Antichrist anyway. People make fools of themselves with -- Ronald Reagan is Antichrist, no, it's Barrack Obama, or Jared Kushner (LOL -- that clown?)
Our Lord clearly taught that when He returns, it'll be all over and it'll be like lightning in the sky and we'll all know it. Anyone who appears before that time claiming to be Christ is either Antichrist or some charlatan. We had one poster here who was convinced that Christ had returned.
In any case, there's a huge amount of Catholic prophecy about a period of peace before Antichrist, a Reign of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and a Triumph of the Church -- way too much to dismiss.
On a separate topic, just last week, the thought occurred to me, in connection with Flat Earth, about why the deception. Of course, it would be more difficult to deny God in a Flat Earth system. But then it also occurred to me, as I hold that the Antichrist will present himself as an alien, if we live on a Flat Earth covered by a firmament, then they could hardly pull off the whole alien stunt. How did said "alien" get through the firmament? And if there's no deep outer space with planets and starts out there, the entire ruse falls apart. But I'll make a separate post about that.
Nonsense. You could clip out 50% of Dupont's collection of Catholic prophecy that all tell the same story, a falling away from the faith, degeneration or morals, etc. ... to be put to an end by a Catholic Monarch and a Holy Pope ... after which there will be a Age / Period of Peace lasting about one generation before the arrival of Antichrist. This is the first time I've posted on this thread, but I've read it.
21. St. Pius X (20th century). "I saw one of my successors taking to flight over the bodies of his brethren. He will take refuge in disguise somewhere; and after a short retirement he will die a cruel death. The present wickedness of the world is only the beginning of the sorrows which must take place before the end of the world."
This playlist disputes some of the evidence on the Three Days of Darkness in Scripture, from Anna Maria Taigi and others:Hello Miser,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buX-0V2o9h4&list=PLB9wsq--mkdMZy7lapuLUI0F6qwbUrRVO&index=5
However, there is a good deal of evidence that China and Bill Gates and MIT and others have developed technology to block out the sun.
Since we have a fake Sr Lucy, fake consecration, and fake third secret, it wouldn't be out of the question for the powers that shouldn't be to fake a miracle of the sun and the Three Days of Darkness.
Marie Julie Jahenny also tells of the three days of darknessThank you so much much for this, Cera.
https://marie-juliejahenny.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_18.html
Before the Age of Peace can take place, God will be compelled to cleanse the earth of all evil. The coming Age of Peace is NOT to be confused with the New Heaven and New Earth, which is the End of Time. The Age of Peace is one last period of glory that Christ's Church will enjoy on earth before the appearance of the Antichrist.
However, before it comes, the earth will have grown so evil it will be worse than the time of the Flood, and so God will cleanse it again, not by water but by fire this time.
(*) Where are the Three Days of Darkness in the Bible? You may find all the relevant Bible passages by clicking here. (https://greatmonarch-angelicpontiffprophecies.blogspot.com/p/three-days-of-darkness-scripture.html)
Many saints, blesseds, venerables and mystics have been shown additional details about these Three Days of Darkness.
(Before I go on however, to stop misinformation, I have to point out the Three Days of Darkness prophecy by St. Padre Pio is a FORGERY and he said so himself. Click here for more info on that. (https://greatmonarch-angelicpontiffprophecies.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_43.html))
Marie-Julie Jahenny's prophecier are NOT forgeries. They are real. Below is information that was foretold to her, including information on how to prepare. Arguably, she has been given the most details to date:
Warning signs:
- The evil ones of the earth will be given a great period of freedom on earth: "i.e. 'Satan's Century' -- Marie-Julie was warned about this BEFORE Pope Leo XIII's famous vision of the same. (Read more about that, click here.) (http://marie-juliejahenny.blogspot.com/2017/10/71-st-gregory-great-prophecy-echoing.html)
- The prelimiary Chastisements will come: unusal weather patterns, catastrophic natural disasters as warning signs. Crops failures, drought, blights, unusal diseases, these are all signs warning people to turn back to God.
- Pastors of the Church would be pubished through major scandal - a punishment for the 'Plague of Degredation'. (Read more, click here.) (http://marie-juliejahenny.blogspot.com/2017/09/67-st-vincent-ferrer-plague-of.html)
- Another sign of 'Satan's Century' and that the evil ones will grow desperate as their time is cut short: false mystics, miracles and wonders will abound, these false mystics will believe what they see and do comes from God, but they will all be tricks and wonders created by the Devil. When we see this happening, GOD IS ABOUT TO STRIKE SOON. (Read more about that, click here.) (http://marie-juliejahenny.blogspot.com/2017/10/72-st-benedict-of-nursia-god-getting.html)
(In addition to false mytics, could this also refer to the sudden manifestation of 'paranormal sightings' such as UFO's in our times? These may be the 'wonders' spoke on that previous ages had never seen before. Also as another possibility, there could be major 'pagan' manifestions, such as the 'milk statues' that suddenly began drinking milk in Hindu temples in 1995 during a 24 hour period throughout the world. Caught on video, click here! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiyTogk9kp4) In ancient times, the devils used to cause 'miracles' in pagan temples order to keep people ensnared in false worship, but their power was greatly reduced after Christ's crucifixion according to Bl Catherine Emmerich. However, now that Satan is let loose again, we may see a sudden surge in these types of devilish wonders before the Days of Darkness.)
- People will become INDIFFERENT, then APOSTASIES will grow, many will start from the CLERGY as they seperate themselves from the 'voice of authority' and spread LEVITY. (See the ecstasy for Janury 4, 1884) (https://marie-juliejahenny.blogspot.com/2019/05/154-another-warning-of-chastisements.html)
- Our Lord and Our Lady also said that everyone will feel an INTERIOR WARNING before the Chastisements strike: Our Lord (August 27, 1878) : “My children, some time before these sinister signs are sent onto the Earth, they will already feel in the heart the effect of My justice, it will be that the heart will say the time is not far away. But a grace of peace is reserved for faithful Christians, those who have not disregarded the warnings of Heaven and who will conform their their lives (to them).
(NOTE: according to the published texts attributed to Marie-Julie Jahenny, there is NO mention of an 'Illumination of Conscience' event during any of the warnings. Apparently, she never predicted such a thing.Also, there is an indication from the prophecies of another mystic named Ven. Bernardo Maria Clausi (1787 - 1849) that we are NOT to pay attention to anyone who tries to go into details of such a universal, 'momentary' event / chastisement as God is reserving this secret for Himself and is NOT going to reveal it to anybody. We are not to pay attention to them he says. Therefore, this is a new indication he gave on how to recognise a fake mystic during these troubling times. Marie-Julie Jahenny warned Satan would send out many false mystics that it would be a like a swarm of flies released from Hell to distract people from the messages of true mystics. CLICK HERE to see more on Ven. Bernardo's warning .) (https://greatmonarch-angelicpontiffprophecies.blogspot.com/p/illumination-of-conscience-event.html)
The problem I fear is that because of the books mentioned in this thread along with the prophecies in the Yves DuPont book and the Fatima shenanigans going on is thatExcellent points, Miser. Not only should we be looking out for antichrist, we should apprehend that we are already living in his kingdom. He has already conquered the whole world, albeit the man of sin has not yet appeared. But this does not of necessity preclude an intuitive sense that we are not yet at the end of the world, and that the Church Militant will flower again before the Second Coming.
many good Catholics are convinced that there absolutely will be an era of peace, the Reign of Mary, before the arrival of the Antichrist.
Many are convinced we are wrong to be on the lookout for the Antichrist.
Well, we don't know the timeline for certain,
but the powers that shouldn't be know all about Catholic prophecies and and have used them to mislead well meaning Catholics before. Medjugorje is just one example
They misuse Padre Pio and Faustina and many saints and mystics to deceive the elect. (See the playlist posted above on the false attribution of the Three Days of Darkness prophecies to them)
The plans for the nwo One World Religion
(Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ/Theosophy/Noahide)
are over a century old so planting seeds of false prophecies along the way to bring it about only makes sense.
The Antichrist will appear as an angel of light so as to fool the elect and will usher in "an era of peace" (before sudden destruction).
The Theosophists at the UN and the Freemasons can honestly say they want to lead everyone to join in saying prayers for the
Coming of Christ
Christ is King
Jesus is King
Mary, the Mother of Jesus is our WORLD MOTHER!
World-MotherFor the Theosophical journal see The World-Mother (periodical) (https://theosophy.wiki/en/The_World-Mother_(periodical))
That is the truth which lies behind the Roman Catholic doctrine of her Assumption; not that she was carried up into heaven among the Angels in her physical body, but that when she left that body she took her place among the Angels, and being presently appointed to the office of World-Mother she became very truly a queen among them, as the Church so poetically says. A great Deva needs no physical body; but while she holds her present office she will always appear to us in feminine form, as will those Adepts who have chosen to help her in her work.[10]
(https://theosophy.wiki/en/World-Mother#cite_note-10)https://theosophy.wiki/en/World-Mother#Mother_Mary
Theosophy is the New Age religion of the United Nations and invokes many Catholic sounding ideas such as:
Logos Rising
Ascended Masters including
St Germain
St Francis of Assisi
JP II
Mother Theresa
St Therese of Lisieux
and many other saints.
I've posted this elsewhere but if you haven't seen it, please take a moment to watch Michael Flynn lead the MAGA folks in a Luciferian "prayer" to St Michael the Archangel:
2min 20sec
https://www.bitchute.com/video/v1m94hzC06L2/
You can see the large image of Jesus behind Elizabeth Clare Prophet.
After WWIII and other calamities we know are coming our way, people will be desperate for peace and will be willing to make concessions to their Catholic Faith if a leader offers something that sounds
CLOSE ENOUGH
That is why we have to stay on our toes and call out all occasions of Ecuмanism, Indifferentism, Syncretism etc.
even if the leader appears to be a wonderful Traditional Catholic prelate who says Latin Mass like Vigano and Benedict.
I had to stop my own researches on the subject, because I found multiple contradictions among the various seers. I also found that there are many prophecies that simply never came true. I tend not to gravitate to Catholic prophecy, as it seems to me to be a a slippery mess. But I do wholeheartedly subscribe to certain apparitions of the Blessed Lady. If the Church has approved Her apparition, then I give it tremendous weight, and use it as a guidestone for my thinking. Generally, I do not give much thought to the three days of darkness; but I have my blessed candles, just in case. LOL!
but as for looking out for "THE ANTICHRIST"
we are warned in Sacred Scripture that there will be many
wolves in sheep's clothing
and many antichrists
which will deceive the elect.
Hi, Lad. Merry Christmas. I think I came off a bit irritable in my last post to you. Sorry - it was unjustified.
I've seen Dupont's book. For the most part, it's a mass of Brother so and so said this, Blessed so and so said that, many of which can be taken to mean a number of things. And there's no attribution to the quotes; no reference to an original or even any source. Then there's things like this (p.22):
Merry Christmas to you too. Yes, I know that DuPont has a lot of "fluff" from less-than-credible sources, but you could eliminate half the book and still find the same trend and the same types of prophecies/predictions in the ones that remain and are credible.
Of course, we have Our Lady at Fatima ... if you don't accept the Dimond interpretation of what "conversion" means, where Our Lady said that the consecration will be done and that Her Immaculate Heart will triumph and a "period of peace" will be granted to the world. I don't find the Dimond view of this "conversion" as credible, nor do I believe that Pius XII properly performed the consecration according to Our Lady's wishes ... much less did Bergoglio do so.
Between Fatima and a significant number actual credible prophecies that remain after excising the fluff from DuPont, I just can't come to any other
Hello Miser,
I listened to this video, and found it somewhat lacking. There are many points about scriptural exegesis made by the author which I think can be disputed. It is proper for Catholics to search for meaning in Divine Revelation, in all times and circuмstances. Though we must give our assent to magisterial teaching and interpretations, we are free to consider things prayerfully when we are not bound to certain interpretations by legitimate authority.
I know of no official and legitimate prohibition of the faithful subscribing to the notion of the three days of darkness, by the Church's hierarchical authority. Therefore I know of no reason why Catholics cannot surmise that such an event may occur in the future.
I had to stop my own researches on the subject, because I found multiple contradictions among the various seers. I also found that there are many prophecies that simply never came true. I tend not to gravitate to Catholic prophecy, as it seems to me to be a a slippery mess. But I do wholeheartedly subscribe to certain apparitions of the Blessed Lady. If the Church has approved Her apparition, then I give it tremendous weight, and use it as a guidestone for my thinking. Generally, I do not give much thought to the three days of darkness; but I have my blessed candles, just in case. LOL!
As for the coven's technological prowess, I am certain it is far less than they would have us imagine. I think their arts reach their summit in the poisoning and murdering department. If the three days of darkness does come upon this miserable world, it will be for the very purpose of taking out their multifarious grids. If it comes, it will be supernatural, and I'd like to believe that those in the state of grace will have certain lights and protections. If the coven tries to pull something off, simply light a blessed candle and stay in the house, as if it were a supernatural event. God will take care of the rest.
I have heard a number of references over the years - and several quite recently - to the alleged prophecy regarding the 3 days of darkness.
This is an answer to my question about the topic from one of our priests who did a good amount of research on the topic.
"To answer your question about the three days of darkness, I have not written an article on the subject but have done research into it some years ago. The gist of it is that I don't believe it is a true prophecy for two reasons:
1) the content is doctrinally suspect and has marks of false revelation
2) there is no authentic source for the claim that any saint or mystic prophesied this.
The most common "authority" for the prophecy is Bl. Anna Maria Taigi. She is quoted all over the internet with a lengthy "exact" quote detailing the three days of darkness. However, no one gives the source of this claim. I tracked it down and it comes from a French book that was a notorious collection of false prophecies many of which have failed to come true since the book was published in the 1800's. Even though the words are quoted as coming directly from Bl. Anna Maria they do not. Actually they are words that someone claimed they heard from someone else who claimed they heard them from her; obviously not a reliable source. In any case, they made their way into a couple of books in English on the subject of prophecy published by TAN and others after Vatican II. At least one of those books specifically mentions the French source in the bibliography so I cannot excuse the author of deliberate deception since he leaves off the portion of the prophecy where she says the three days would happen during the reign of Pius IX and that during the next pope the whole world would be converted. None of that came true, of course, so the English author simply left it out but published the rest of the supposed prophecy and now that portion of it is all over the internet. That is not to say anything against Bl. Anna Maria who obviously led a holy life in the mind of the Church; it is simply saying that this prophecy has nothing to do with her. She did have some prophecies as Pius XI somewhere notes but he noted that they are in the archives of the Sacred Congregation of the Sacraments for judgment if I recall. Aside from the info I provided below from a previous email, here is a link to a very interesting book by Fr. Thurston on various false prophecies and their origins; the full "quote" on the three days is found in this book on page 5 to which this link will open:
https://archive.org/details/warprophetsnotes00thuruoft/page/5 (https://archive.org/details/warprophetsnotes00thuruoft/page/5)
Incidentally, some have accused Fr. Thurston of being liberal leaning due to a 1960's edition of his Butler's Lives of the Saints in which a footnote disparages St. Philomena. That footnote was not his as the edition was published after his death with editorial changes while still keeping his name. He died long before the 1961 "decree" under John XXIII which essentially decanonized St. Philomena as noted in the footnote. So obviously he could not have written that note. I will say that Fr. Thurston was probably leaned more to skepticism on mystical phenomena, however, and probably was too inclined to attribute some things to natural cause. However I think that is better than the opposite fault of being deceived into believing every person who claims to have mystical phenomena which are often merely the result of imagination and sometimes mental disease."
Hey Simeon,
I got sidetracked and didn't get back to you on this. :P
A good priest talked me down from focusing too much on prophecies and apparitions some years ago so I can relate and I too believe in the approved apparitions.
I'm not sure what to make of the three days. The playlist went through why many of the stories have been faked but I too have my blessed beeswax candle just to be on the safe side. :)
The tradcasters really push the three days of darkness so I'm a bit skeptical because they have also been pushing Bennyvacantism and obfuscating his outright apostasy which would take very little research (like reading his book) to uncover.
As for "the coven's technological prowess" as you put it (you have a lovely way with words :) ) do you have any theories on how they are able to convince 100's of thousands of pilgrims for 30 years now at Medjugorje that the sun is blinking and dancing about in the sky. :confused:
Regarding the Three Days of Darkness, the CMRI's Fr. Timothy Geckle posted this on Facebook earlier this year:It's difficult to take this seriously when this person does not name the book that he supposedly "tracked down." Hmmm.
. . . The most common "authority" for the prophecy is Bl. Anna Maria Taigi. She is quoted all over the internet with a lengthy "exact" quote detailing the three days of darkness. However, no one gives the source of this claim. I tracked it down and it comes from a French book that was a notorious collection of false prophecies many of which have failed to come true since the book was published in the 1800's
“Things will be so convulsed that man would no longer be able to put things in order, but the omnipotent Arm of the Lord will remedy everything. She told me that the great scourge of the earth had been mitigated, but not that of Heaven, for it would be horrible, shocking and universal.” Truly, the universal nature of the coming chastisement makes it a “Judgment of Nations.”Three days of darkness
That great Chastisement would occur long after the holy people of her epoch had been buried, he continued. “It will arrive unexpectedly and in it the wicked will be destroyed. I saw the earth enveloped in flames, many buildings crumbling, the earth and Heaven seemed to be in agony.
“Many millions of men will die by steel, some in wars, others in conflicts, and millions more by unforeseen death, and this throughout the whole world. As a result, entire nations will return to the unity of the Catholic Church, many Turks, Gentiles and Hebrews will be converted in a way that will surprise Catholics, who will be amazed by the fervor and observance they will show in their lives.
“In short, she told me that the Lord wanted to purge the world and His Church, and for that He had prepared a new crop of souls who, unknown, would appear to perform great works and surprising miracles. She told me that after the Lord had cleansed the earth with wars, revolutions and other calamities, Heaven would begin [its chastisement].
“For, at the end of this scourge, there would be a general convulsion of shocking meteorological phenomena with many deaths. The Servant of God told me several times that the Lord showed her in the mysterious sun the universal triumph of the renewed Church, by a manner so great and surprising that she could not describe it. ” [3]
“There shall come over the whole earth an intense darkness lasting three days and three nights. Nothing will be able to be seen, and the air will be laden with pestilence which will claim mainly, but not only, the enemies of Religion. It will be impossible to use any man-made light during this darkness, except blessed candles.see more: