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Offline Simeon

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Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
« on: December 04, 2022, 06:24:57 AM »
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  • Why does Fr. Kramer keep referring to the millenium to come? 

    Here are three quotes using the search feature in my kindle edition:

    "In and through His power in the Eucharist, Christ will effect this judgement. And then the millenium, the days of endless peace, will dawn upon the world."

    "...there shall be no death except that of the sinner, during the millenium..."

    "During the millenium, all shall know her."

    What does he mean by the millenium?


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #1 on: December 04, 2022, 06:31:27 AM »
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  • I find more quotes when I change the spelling of millenium to use two "n's."

    "That day will be the destruction of antichrist and all his hordes, and the establishment of the millenium thereafter."

    "The golden promises of the prophets shall be fulfilled, and the millenium shall be ushered in."

    "...so much more glorious will those countries be in the future millenium, when the Church shall be universally obeyed..."

    "...they have given up all share in the earthly millenium..."

    And so forth. There were 61 hits when I spelled it with two "n's."

    What is this????!!!!!!!!



    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #2 on: December 04, 2022, 07:59:11 AM »
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  • I find more quotes when I change the spelling of millenium to use two "n's."

    "That day will be the destruction of antichrist and all his hordes, and the establishment of the millenium thereafter."

    "The golden promises of the prophets shall be fulfilled, and the millenium shall be ushered in."

    "...so much more glorious will those countries be in the future millenium, when the Church shall be universally obeyed..."

    "...they have given up all share in the earthly millenium..."

    And so forth. There were 61 hits when I spelled it with two "n's."

    What is this????!!!!!!!!

    Sounds likes he's a Millennialist or Chiliast, i.e., he believes in a literal earthly 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth after the destruction of the Antichrist. But the Antichrist is destroyed by Our Lord's "coming" in the final judgment, and I summarized the Biblical witness here: The State of the Church in Our Current Times... - page 1 - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

    So I don't get that view, personally, but I don't think it's been formally condemned by the Church, although the Holy Office said this:


    Quote
    PIUS XII 1939-1958


    Millenarianism (Chiliasm) *

    [Decree of the Holy Office, July 21, 1944]


    2296 In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.


    https://staging2.sensusfidelium.com/the-sources-of-catholic-dogma-the-denzinger/pius-xii-1939-1958-millenarianism-chiliasm/




    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #3 on: December 04, 2022, 09:05:20 AM »
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  • Decem,

    Thank you so much. I thought it might be the case. I'm not at all at my ease reading someone with this point of view. 

    It's unfortunate because he otherwise makes very insightful comments about the Apocalypse.

    Have you read his book? Would you recommend it? 

    And thank you for the link to the other thread. I'll check it out. 

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #4 on: December 05, 2022, 07:24:06 AM »
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  • Decem,

    Thank you so much. I thought it might be the case. I'm not at all at my ease reading someone with this point of view.

    It's unfortunate because he otherwise makes very insightful comments about the Apocalypse.

    Have you read his book? Would you recommend it?

    And thank you for the link to the other thread. I'll check it out.

    I wouldn't recommend the book, though I also wouldn't recommend not reading it. I think some of his readings are on the verge of fantastic, and that he tends to read things too literally - no, that's not the right word. He often reads things which have a spiritual or poetic sense in a material way, as referring to some actual physical or material phenomenon. This bent to his thought is exemplified regarding Apoc. 20:8-10, which reads:  

    Quote
    And they came upon the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. [9] And there came down fire from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast [10] And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Of the fire from heaven, he writes, "[p]erhaps the Church shall defend herself through a small army by some destructive electric ray." That's just a rather prominent example of I think a general tendency on his part. 

    But more importantly, I distrust him overall in light of this, from page 451 of my edition (Tan, 1972 reprint), regarding the 1,000 years of Apoc. 20:4, the Millenium:


    Quote
    Verse four is impossible of logical interpretation for those who place the thousand years chronologically ahead of the reign of Antichrist, because its contents are a positive contradiction of that theory.

    That's emphatic language, pulling no punches. Unfortunately, he's saying that the predominant interpretation of Catholic theologians going back to St. Augustine at least in his book City of God is logically impossible and contradicting Apoc. 20:4. That's quite astounding to me. I can't believe he was ignorant of that more dominant and common reading, exemplified in the notes to the Douay Rheims, both those of the original annotators and Bishop Challoner:


    Quote
    Original Rheims annotation - 2. Bound him. ] Christ by his Passion hath abridged the power of the Devil for a thousand years, that is, the whole time of the new Testament, until Antichrist's time, when he shall be loosed again, that is, be permitted to deceive the world, but for a short time only, to wit, three years and a half.


    Challoner - "Bound him": The power of Satan has been very much limited by the passion of Christ: for a thousand years; that is, for the whole time of the New Testament; but especially from the time of the destruction of Babylon or pagan Rome, till the new efforts of Gog and Magog against the church, towards the end of the world. During which time the souls of the martyrs and saints live and reign with Christ in heaven, in the first resurrection, which is that of the soul to the life of glory; as the second resurrection will be that of the body, at the day of the general judgment.

    To dismiss that reading as "impossible of logical interpretation" and contradicted by the verse - not merely saying you disagree with it after acknowledging it  - is a huge red flag to me. Actually, he doesn't even acknowledge the Augustinian and Douay Rheims interpretation anywhere to my recollection, and certainly doesn't in his commentary on verse 4, which you would think he would since it's the verse containing the 1,000 years of the Millenium.  

    So, while Fr. Kramer makes some interesting, valuable and accurate observations, I'd be wary of giving him too much weight. 

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #5 on: December 05, 2022, 08:09:13 AM »
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  • He's not talking about millennialism, I've talked about this passage in his book before. He's talking about a period of the universal reign of the Church on earth after Antichrist, culminating in the battle of Gog and Magog right before Christ returns. Its referring to Apoc. 20:7.

    There's a possibility of there being a certain period after the death of Antichrist where the Jєωs convert. Some take this to be maybe 40 days to decades. Some say centuries, such as Fr. Kramer, leading up to the second coming. Others think the world ends immediately upon the death of Antichrist.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #6 on: December 05, 2022, 08:52:32 AM »
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  • He's not talking about millennialism, I've talked about this passage in his book before. He's talking about a period of the universal reign of the Church on earth after Antichrist, culminating in the battle of Gog and Magog right before Christ returns. Its referring to Apoc. 20:7.

    There's a possibility of there being a certain period after the death of Antichrist where the Jєωs convert. Some take this to be maybe 40 days to decades. Some say centuries, such as Fr. Kramer, leading up to the second coming. Others think the world ends immediately upon the death of Antichrist.

    He's quite clear in claiming the Antichrist comes before the millenium:"That day will be the destruction of antichrist and all his hordes, and the establishment of the millenium thereafter." How many "millenium" are there? He also interprets "the millenium" in the other verses of Apoc. 20 where it's mentioned (.e.g. the first mention, in Apoc. 20:2, and in 20:4) as referring to a 1,000 year period after the Antichrist, so he's quite clearly opposing the Augustinian interpretation and the gloss in the Douay Rheims and Haydock (below) on 20:2. 

    You have the book, DL. Does he refer to Augustine's contrary opinion, or the position reflected in annotations in the Douay Rheims or Haydock, anywhere? Here's Haydock: 

    Quote
    He [i.e., St. Augustine} then expounds what may be understood by the binding and chaining of the devil for a thousand years; (Cap. vii. & viii, p. 581) that the thousand years, meaning a long time, may signify all the time from Christ's first coming[4] to his second at the end of the world, and to the last short persecution under antichrist.

    He deals with this understanding of "the millenium," or "the thousand years," nowhere to my knowledge. Where, in his scholarly book on The Apocalypse, does he even mention the prevalent, contrary Augustinian interpretation of what is commonly understood as "the millenium," the phrase he uses? That's poor scholarship, if nothing else.

    I'd be curious, also, as to any other theologian, saint, etc. who opines that the time after the defeat of Antichrist, before Christ's return in judgment, is 1,000 years. Do you know of any? 

    And he says the saints "reign with Christ" on earth for this 1,000 years? It seems to me unclear whether he says Christ is also physically on earth during this time. You've read the book closer than I, I'm sure, so do you have an understanding as to that?

    DR 
     





    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #7 on: December 05, 2022, 01:43:37 PM »
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  • I wouldn't recommend the book, though I also wouldn't recommend not reading it. I think some of his readings are on the verge of fantastic, and that he tends to read things too literally - no, that's not the right word. He often reads things which have a spiritual or poetic sense in a material way, as referring to some actual physical or material phenomenon. This bent to his thought is exemplified regarding Apoc. 20:8-10, which reads: 

    Of the fire from heaven, he writes, "[p]erhaps the Church shall defend herself through a small army by some destructive electric ray." That's just a rather prominent example of I think a general tendency on his part.

    But more importantly, I distrust him overall in light of this, from page 451 of my edition (Tan, 1972 reprint), regarding the 1,000 years of Apoc. 20:4, the Millenium:


    That's emphatic language, pulling no punches. Unfortunately, he's saying that the predominant interpretation of Catholic theologians going back to St. Augustine at least in his book City of God is logically impossible and contradicting Apoc. 20:4. That's quite astounding to me. I can't believe he was ignorant of that more dominant and common reading, exemplified in the notes to the Douay Rheims, both those of the original annotators and Bishop Challoner:


    To dismiss that reading as "impossible of logical interpretation" and contradicted by the verse - not merely saying you disagree with it after acknowledging it  - is a huge red flag to me. Actually, he doesn't even acknowledge the Augustinian and Douay Rheims interpretation anywhere to my recollection, and certainly doesn't in his commentary on verse 4, which you would think he would since it's the verse containing the 1,000 years of the Millenium. 

    So, while Fr. Kramer makes some interesting, valuable and accurate observations, I'd be wary of giving him too much weight.

    DR

    Decem, thank you for what I would qualify as a mighty reply!

    Another thing that jolted me was his characterization of Christendom as a democracy. Surely he knew that the civil order naturally derived from the union of Church and State is essentially monarchic.

    He wrote on pg. 103 of the kindle edition: "After the pagan order shall have been wiped out, and the political order of Christ and God been inaugurated in a Divine democracy, the members of the Church shall have citizen rights that excel all Roman rights."

    Regarding his categorical dismissal of the traditional interpretations, there can be more than one sense of any passage of Scripture, and generally there are multiple senses. It is not necessary to abandon previous interpretations when another comes to light.

    He more or less throws out St. Jerome's interpretation of the four living beings in St. John's vision of the throne. St. Jerome held them to represent the four Evangelists; but Fr. Kramer rejects this, except in an "accommodated sense." He said that St. Jerome's interpretation has been "rather unfortunate" for the exegesis of the Apocalypse. (pg. 122)

    Now I did find Fr. Kramer's interpretation of the four living creatures as representing the ministerial priesthood very interesting and enlightening. His commentary was quite thought provoking. But he seems very ready to throw ancient interpretations out the window - again seemingly forgetting the fittingness of Holy Writ for multiple senses and meanings.

    Fr. Kramer is an American; hence his idiosyncrasies and even maverick nature do not necessarily surprise me. 











    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #8 on: December 05, 2022, 01:47:00 PM »
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  • To DR and DL: Thank you for your comments. Very enlightening!

    Now I have to decide whether to finish the book. I was enjoying it a lot, with these several exceptions. 

    What is the best commentary on the Apocalypse that is available in English? 

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #9 on: December 05, 2022, 01:53:25 PM »
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  • I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #10 on: December 05, 2022, 01:59:15 PM »
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  • I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.
    Thank you, DL. I have it. 

    Do you recommend Kramer? 


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #11 on: December 05, 2022, 02:05:12 PM »
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  • Thank you, DL. I have it.

    Do you recommend Kramer?
    I think he has some good insights, and I like book, but it's not necessarily a favorite
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #12 on: December 05, 2022, 02:05:50 PM »
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  • To DR and DL: Thank you for your comments. Very enlightening!

    Now I have to decide whether to finish the book. I was enjoying it a lot, with these several exceptions.

    What is the best commentary on the Apocalypse that is available in English?

    While not a verse by verse commentary, St. Augustine's City of God, Book XX. I would definitely start there if you haven't read it. He looks at other Bible passages dealing with the end times, so he deals with the infallible sources in Scripture, with which any view on the Apocalypse must of course be consistent. He gives a necessary foundation that is useful before a close verse by verse study. 

    Not sure what the best translation is, but it's on the New Advent.org: site: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #13 on: December 05, 2022, 02:07:17 PM »
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  • I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.

    Thanks, DL, for the attachment. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question Re: Kramer's Book Of Destiny
    « Reply #14 on: December 05, 2022, 02:08:23 PM »
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  • While not a verse by verse commentary, St. Augustine's City of God, Book XX. I would definitely start there if you haven't read it. He looks at other Bible passages dealing with the end times, so he deals with the infallible sources in Scripture, with which any view on the Apocalypse must of course be consistent. He gives a necessary foundation that is useful before a close verse by verse study.

    Not sure what the best translation is, but it's on the New Advent.org: site: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm


    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.