Oh, that's funny about Ryan Grant, not being a translator.


Decem Rationis nailed it on Kramer's judaizing tendencies.

I've always suspected Fr. Kramer was a Jєω.



Fr. Gruner used him for his publications, owning the 2nd largest printing factory in Canada.

The image that was the last straw for me, for taking him seriously was published around 10 years ago. 

It was Fr. Kramer celebrating Mass with his sunglasses on in Father Chazal's poorly lit seminary chapel in the Philippines.

Wrong Kramer, Incred. 

Not laughing at you. It's just . . . funny. 

I suspect you know that, and that makes it even funnier if you did. Touche. 

"St. Justin does not put this millennium after the General Judgment, as the Chiliasts do, but before and draws the conclusion from his own rendition of the Septuagint that there shall be no death except that of the sinner during the millenium."

"The sentence is probably to be taken in a more spiritual sense, that there is no death for the saint. The day of his departure is his eternal birthday. From a spiritual viewpoint, a saint, as Aloysius, the Little Flower, Francis of Assisi and thousands of others has reached maturity far beyond that of the greatest prophets. Though young in years, they were ripe in sanctity. During the millennium all common Christians may progress to high degrees of sanctity. The sentence, "death shall be no more", may then mean what St. Paul says: "O Death, where is the victory? O Death, where is thy sting?" In apostolic days death was looked upon as a repose. So the Acts say of St. Stephen: "He fell asleep in the Lord". In the catacombs of Rome, that inscription is found quite generally. During the millennium faith may be so lively and intense that men will consider death a transition into a happier life. Sinners may live to grow mature in sinfulness and receive their punishment not in this life but in Hell. Even now the greater anyone's faith, the less does he dread death; and those true Christians who live to a ripe old age often desire the day of death, as did St. John and St. Paul. The bereaved ones will not grieve over the death of one who lived to maturity in years and sanctity nor express it by mourning."

§ 4. Perfect Catholicity to be Attained
Thesis.—The Church of Christ shall at length attain perfect catholicity, i. e., it shall finally embrace all nations and all peoples without exception


Although moral universality is sufficient to make the Church truly Catholic, the prophecies of old certainly demand something more for their adequate fulfillment; one and all announce a kingdom that shall be universal to the last degree. A few examples will make this clear: (a) “He shall ride from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth . . . and all kings of earth shall adore him; all nations shall serve him  . . . And in him shall all tribes of the earth be blessed'; all nations shall magnify him.” (Ps. lxxi, 8 sq.)  (b) “And all the nations thou hast made shall come and adore before thee, O Lord; and they shall glorify thy name.” (Ps. kxxv, 9)  (c) "His empire shall be multiplied and there shall be no end of peace." (Is. ix, 7.)  (d) “And judgment shall sit . . . that the kingdom, and power, and the greatness of the kingdom wider the whole heaven may be given to the saints of the most High; whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom and all kings shall serve him and obey him." (Dan. vii, 26, 27.)  (e) “He shall speak peace to the gentiles and his power shall be from sea to sea, and from the rivers even to the ends of the earth." (Zach. ix, 10)

Prophecies such as these find no adequate fulfillment in the conversion of a few thousand, or even a few million souls among the vast pagan populations of earth.  Neither can a world largely steeped in paganism, torn by schism and distracted by heresy, be the only fruit of Christ's death upon the Cross. We are forced to say with St. Augustine: "Even in the islands of the sea shall be fulfilled the word of prophecy, 'He shall rule from sea to sea," and if a prophet cannot deceive, it is necessary that all nations whatsoever He has made, shall adore Him." ("Epist. ad Hesychium," P. L., 33, 922)

Even the scattered nation of the Jews shall follow the gentiles into the Church, as St. Paul plainly states: "I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel until the fulness of the gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." (Rom. xi, 25.) Again he says of the Jєωιѕн people: “If the loss of them be the reconciliation of the world, what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead?” (Rom. xi, 15)

After the gentile nations have entered the Church, the Jews also shall submit to the faith of Christ and the Church shall be universal indeed. Then shall begin the reign of Christ in all its fullness, “from sea to sea," and all the prophecies shall be justified. This does not mean that each and every individual of every nation and tribe shall submit to the Church; nations and peoples, not individuals, have been promised to the Chinch for her inheritance. It does mean, however, that all nations, as nations, and at least the vast majority of their subjects, shall recognize the true Church of Christ and submit to her authority.

These prophecies will not be fulfilled before the time of Antichrist, since the Apocalypse makes it certain that he will come into a world harassed by paganism apostacy, schism, and heresy. (Apoc. ix, 20, 21)  The Jews, still unconverted, will accept him as Messias and assist in his warfare against the Church. Only after the defeat of Antichrist and the conversion of the gentile nations, will the Jews accept Christ as Messias. According to the generally accepted opinion, this will take place shortly before the end of the world, since the coming of Antichrist is looked upon as a prelude to the consummation of all things earthly. If this be true, the universal reign of Christ would seem a failure in point of time. It certainly does not seem probable that thousands of years spent in preparation shall lead up to a universal reign of Christ lasting but a few short months, or at most, a few short years. It would be considered a mark of folly in a human society to labor for years building itself up to the point where it could most effectively carry out its programme, and then disband. Are we not accusing Christ of like folly if we suppose He will in like manner bring the earthly career of His Church to an end almost immediately upon attaining the state in which it can perfectly carry out its mission?

It seems far more probable that the period of fruition will at least equal, and perhaps even exceed, the period of preparation, and therefore that many centuries will intervene between the destruction of Antichrist and the end of the world. The progressive character of the Church in her extension has already been noted. Beginning at Jerusalem, she spread with miraculous rapidity, extending her limits ever farther and farther with the passing centuries, yet all the while the gates of hell were struggling to prevent it. The Church has been forced to wage unceasing war upon her enemies. Judaism assailed her in infancy; then followed, in succession, Arianism, Islamism, the Greek schism, the pseudo-Reformation of the sixteenth century, and Rationalism in the eighteenth. Today she is warring against indifferentism and the denial of all religion. The "mystery of iniquity," mentioned by St. Paul, (2 Thess. ii, 7) grows apace with the spread of the Church, and will culminate in the coming of Antichrist, when Satan will make a last supreme effort to prevent the universal reign of Christ in His Church. After a short but desperate struggle, the Church will emerge victorious, Antichrist will perish, and the powers of Satan will be curbed, so "that he should no more seduce the nations." (Apoc. xx, 3.)

After the defeat and destruction of Antichrist, all nations will flow into the Church, the Jews will enter her fold, and the universal reign of Christ will be established over all peoples, tribes, and tongues. Then shall the words of Christ be literally and completely fulfilled: “I have overcome the world.” (John xvi, 33.)  After a long period of time, symbolically designated as a thousand years, (Apoc. xx, 2, 3.) "Satan shall be loosed out of his prison , and shall go forth to seduce the nations which are over the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, and shall gather them together to battle” (Apoc. xx, 7.) for a final persecution of the Church. By special intervention of God, these hostile nations shall be quickly defeated and the Church shall stand forth once more victorious. Then will the day of judgment be near at hand. [see footnote]

Cf. Berry, "The Apocalypse of St. John," pp.189 sq. - The interpretation of the prophecies regarding the time of Antichrist and subsequent events is given as an opinion to be accepted for what it is worth. So far as we know, there is no pronouncement of the Church on this question. In fact, no doctrine is involved. It is generally held by Catholic theologians that the Church will be completely Catholic after the days of Antichrist. This doctrine is not materially affected by the further consideration concerning the time of his appearance. This is merely an interesting speculation, of which the above solution seems probable to us. It might be objected that Christ Himself places the end of the world immediately after the attainment of complete Catholicity by the Church: "This gospel shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Matt. xxiv, 14.) And St. Paul connects the coming of Antichrist with the second coming of Christ. "And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus . . . shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." (2 Thess. ii, 8.) Neither objection has any weight; in the first Our Lord was simply assuring the Apostles that there would be sufficient time to carry the gospel to all nations, since, the consummation will not come until that has been accomplished. He does not say that it will come immediately upon its accomplishment. In the other case, we see no reason why "his coming" -παρουία- must be taken to mean the personal coming of Our Lord at the last day, rather than a metaphorical coming in manifest judgment against Antichrist.

Joe Cupertino said: The opinion of Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer is notably different from what Fr. Pohle describes as Chiliasm and moderate Chiliasm.  Berry and Kramer's opinion is that Christ and the saints will reign through the Church between the time of Antichrist and the Second Coming, not, as the Chiliasts hold, that they will physically reign on Earth during that time. Berry and Kramer's opinion also don't include Christ as a temporal Messias. Pohle's "third, still more moderate group of Millennialists," which hold that "an era of universal peace and tranquillity will precede the second coming of Christ" could appear to have some similarity to Berry and Kramer's opinion, but that group is said to hold to an era that is  "suddenly interrupted by the great apostasy and the forerunners of Anti-Christ," whereas Kramer and Berry place their universal reign of Christ (through the Church) after Antichrist, and before the Second Coming. 


The difference is also seen in how Fr. Pohle refutes this moderate Millennialism, which he says is not easily refuted, and seems to have a basis in Scripture and primitive Tradition.  His refutation of this moderate Millennialism is that the New Testament and early creeds make it apparent that the Resurrection, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world "follow one another in close succession, leaving no time for a millennium."  It's apparent that the interruption of this succession is something essential to what he describes as moderate Millennialism.  This isn't descriptive of Kramer and Berry's opinion, as their opinion doesn't entail an interruption of that succession, since they place the universal reign of Christ prior to all three events, not after any of them.

Second Point: Fr. Berry articulates what I would be so bold as to qualify as the authentic eschatological sensus catolicus, and categorically not “Catholic utopianism.”

I think we must dissolve this point from the question of timeline. Will the Church rule from sea to sea before the end of the world? Forget, for a time, the question of when in relation to both antichrist and the Dies Irae. Simply this: Will the Roman Catholic Church reign in the whole earth sometime before the end of the world? I firmly believe She will, with what I hope is real Catholic faith.

I haven’t had a chance to study the passages from St. Augustine that Decem recommends so highly. But I will ask you, Decem, if you can point to specific passages of St. Augustine that explicitly refute the essential point asserted by Fr. Berry; namely that the Church will enjoy universal possession of the earth sometime before the end of the world. Fr. Berry himself quoted St. Augustine in his demonstration. It seems to me that the passages you have thus far provided relate to the question of antichrist and timeline, rather than to the more simple question of a coming universal reign and dominion of the Church.

I think that the question of a coming universal reign of the Church - dissolved from the subject of antichrist and timeline - is absolutely essential, given the protestant revolt and Vatican II. 

I would go so far as to assert that the "when and in what order" questions of antichrist and timeline are lower in priority than the "if" question about the future universal reign.

I sense that the fact that these questions are not properly severed for the purpose of analysis, causes a general confusion and conflation of ideas in the minds of Catholics, absolutely blasted by Vatican II and perfectly mystified by Fatima.

In the rational order, "if" comes first, then "when."

I sense that the fact that these questions are not properly severed for the purpose of analysis, causes a general confusion and conflation of ideas in the minds of Catholics, absolutely blasted by Vatican II and perfectly mystified by Fatima.

Decem,

Daily life is calling me away. I cannot reply now to your last post. I'm almost finished with spiritual reading, and I have come upon this text in Apocalypse 5:9-10:

And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

Does Augustine interpret this passage?

Therefore the Church even now is the kingdom of Christ, and the kingdom of heaven. Accordingly, even now His saints reign with Him, though otherwise than as they shall reign hereafter;


Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3330). Kindle Edition.

City of God, Book XX, Chap. 9

But while the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the same thousand years, understood in the same way, that is, of the time of His first coming.[ 506 ] For, leaving out of account that kingdom concerning which He shall say in the end, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, take possession of the kingdom prepared for you,”( Matt. xxv. 34 . ) the Church could not now be called His kingdom or the kingdom of heaven unless His saints were even now reigning with Him, though in another and far different way; for to His saints He says, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world.”( Matt. xxviii. 20 . )


Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3329). Kindle Edition.

For, after saying that the devil is bound a thousand years and is afterwards loosed for a short season, it goes on to give a sketch of what the Church does or of what is done in the Church in those days, in the words, “And I saw seats and them that sat upon them, and judgment was given.” It is not to be supposed that this refers to the last judgment, but to the seats of the rulers and to the rulers themselves by whom the Church is now governed. And no better interpretation of judgment being given can be produced than that which we have in the words, “What ye bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”( Matt. xviii. 18 . ) Whence the apostle says, “What have I to do with judging them that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?”( 1 Cor. v. 12 . ) “And the souls,” says John, “of those who were slain for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God,”—understanding what he afterwards says, “reigned with Christ a thousand years,”( Rev. xx. 4 . )—that is, the souls of the martyrs not yet restored to their bodies. For the souls of the pious dead are not separated from the Church, which even now is the kingdom of Christ; otherwise there would be no remembrance made of them at the altar of God in the partaking of the body of Christ, nor would it do any good in danger to run to His baptism, that we might not pass from this life without it; nor to reconciliation, if by penitence or a bad conscience any one may be severed from His body. For why are these things practised, if not because the faithful, even though dead, are His members? Therefore, while these thousand years run on, their souls reign with Him, though not as yet in conjunction with their bodies. And therefore in another part of this same book we read, “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth and now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works do follow them.”( Rev. xiv. 13 . ) The Church, then, begins its reign with Christ now in the living and in the dead. For, as the apostle says, “Christ died that He might be Lord both of the living and of the dead.”( Rom. xiv. 9 . ) But he mentioned the souls of the martyrs only, because they who have contended even to death for the truth, themselves principally reign after death; but, taking the part for the whole, we understand the words of all others who belong to the Church, which is the kingdom of Christ.


Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 3331-3332). Kindle Edition.

Ver. 10. And hast made us to our God, &c. See 1 Pet. ii. 5, 9. Wi. — All Christians may justly be styled kings and priests of God, by the spiritual empire they possess over their passions and the world; and by the continual offering they make on the altar of their hearts, by means of the prayers they daily offer up to God. Origen. — Thus they say, we shall reign on the earth by the empire we shall exercise over our passions; and by the union we shall have with Jesus Christ and his Church, triumph over all who have persecuted us. Estius. Andræas.

In "The Church of Christ" (1927), Fr. Berry summarizes his opinion, which is substantively the same as Fr. Kramer's.

pp.138-139