I don't know what the best is, as the Apocalypse itself is so difficult to decipher before everything unfolds. I find Fr. Sylvester Berry's to be among the best I've read. Attached below.

  1) Do you believe that there will be a mass conversion of the Jєωs to the true faith at some point?

I have heard all my Catholic life that the Jєωs will convert at the end of the world. I have not read the Apocalypse because it is too mysterious for me. I try to read it and then have to put it down. Nor have I read through an entire  commentary. The same thing happens. I start and cannot finish.

I have no opinion on the conversion of the Jєωs at the end times, except I have been led to believe that this is the common doctrine of the Church. I wonder about this a lot; for, in the first place, who are the Jєωs? The filthy kazars are not from the line of Sem, correct? Who are the Jєωs?

You use the term “mass conversion,” and I sense that the word ‘mass’ contains a lot of the meaning of your own position. I don’t know exactly what you mean by it. My understanding, based upon what I’ve gleaned over the years, is that the conversion of the Jєωs will be a corporate act – not the act of a few individuals. This is not my own opinion or intuitive sense of things. It is merely what I’ve heard.

Thus, I have no true opinion, only questions.


2) When do you believe the Antichrist comes?

That’s my $64,000 question. My intuitive sense is that Our Lady will Triumph, and Christ will rule from sea to sea, before the antichrist arrives. But I understand perfectly well that I am just as likely to be wrong as right.

That being said, I was thinking this morning that, while we certainly are right now in a great apostasy of the Gentiles, it might not be the Great Apostasy. What if all the nations of the world converted and Christendom became a universal reality? Would not a subsequent apostasy of the entire earth – after so much grace and truth were given back to the world – in fact merit the antichrist and his persecution?

3) How do you understand the millenium of Apoc. 20? When is it on the divine time table?

I don’t understand it at all, because I have never applied my mind to consider it. But I reject the protestant notion of rapture and a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. Because I reject these things, and because I saw what seemed to me to be a reference to this notion, as if it were true, in Fr. Kramer’s book, I started this thread.

Tell me, does St. Augustine address any of the questions you posed to me?

You use the term “mass conversion,” and I sense that the word ‘mass’ contains a lot of the meaning of your own position. I don’t know exactly what you mean by it. My understanding, based upon what I’ve gleaned over the years, is that the conversion of the Jєωs will be a corporate act – not the act of a few individuals. This is not my own opinion or intuitive sense of things. It is merely what I’ve heard.

But I reject the protestant notion of rapture and a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth.

Tell me, does St. Augustine address any of the questions you posed to me?

He [i.e., St. Augustine} then expounds what may be understood by the binding and chaining of the devil for a thousand years; (Cap. vii. & viii, p. 581) that the thousand years, meaning a long time, may signify all the time from Christ's first coming[4] to his second at the end of the world, and to the last short persecution under antichrist.

City of God, Book XX, Chapter 7

Now the thousand years may be understood in two ways, so far as occurs to me: either because these things happen in the sixth thousand of years or sixth millennium (the latter part of which is now passing), as if during the sixth day, which is to be followed by a Sabbath which has no evening, the endless rest of the saints, so that, speaking of a part under the name of the whole, he calls the last part of the millennium—the part, that is, which had yet to expire before the end of the world—a thousand years; or he used the thousand years as an equivalent for the whole duration of this world, employing the number of perfection to mark the fullness of time.

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 3320-3321). Kindle Edition.

Apoc. 20

[1] And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand. [2] And he laid hold on the dragon the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. [3] And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should no more seduce the nations, till the thousand years be finished. And after that, he must be loosed a little time. [4] And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

“The rest of them,” he says, “did not live.” For now is the hour when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live; and the rest of them shall not live. The words added, “until the thousand years are finished,” mean that they did not live in the time in which they ought to have lived by passing from death to life. And therefore, when the day of the bodily resurrection arrives, they shall come out of their graves, not to life, but to judgment, namely, to damnation, which is called the second death. For whosoever has not lived until the thousand years be finished, i.e ., during this whole time in which the first resurrection is going on,—whosoever has not heard the voice of the Son of God, and passed from death to life,—that man shall certainly in the second resurrection, the resurrection of the flesh, pass with his flesh into the second death.

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3333). Kindle Edition.

Therefore the Church even now is the kingdom of Christ, and the kingdom of heaven. Accordingly, even now His saints reign with Him, though otherwise than as they shall reign hereafter;


Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 3330). Kindle Edition.

I thought Fr. Pohle's opinion would be a worthwhile addition to the discussion:

Eschatology or the Catholic Doctrine of the Last Things A Dogmatic Treatise Rev. Joseph Pohle Ph.D. D.D SECTION 2 CHILIASM, OR MILLENARIANISM 1. CHILIASM IN ITS TWO FORMS.—There are two forms of Chiliasm or Millenarianism. The exaggerated form is heretical, while the more moderate is simply erroneous. a) The heretical form of Chiliasm may be traced partly to the Jєωιѕн expectation of a temporal Messias and partly to the apocryphal writings of the Old Testament, which abound in fables. The Chiliasts of this school conceived the millennium as a period of unbridled sensual indulgence. Eusebius the church-historian says of Cerinthus, a Gnostic heretic who flourished towards the end of the first century: “He held that at some time in the future Christ would reign on earth; and as he was addicted to the pleasures of the flesh, he imagined that the reign of God would consist of such things.” This error was shared by the ancient Ebionites and Apollinarianists and, in a somewhat more respectable form, still persists among the Mormons and Irvingites. b) Moderate Chiliasm had a number of adherents among Patristic writers, notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Nepos, Commodian, Victorinus of Pettau, and Lactantius. Its favorite text was Apoc. 20:1 sqq. Papias believed that the Resurrection of the flesh would be followed by a glorious reign of Christ, in which the Saints would enjoy a superabundance of earthly pleasures for a thousand years. These pleasures, however, were to be spiritual, or at least morally licit. In developing this idea its champions parted ways. Some expected the millennium between the General Judgment and the Resurrection of the dead, while others believed it would occur after the General Resurrection, immediately before the assumption of the just into Heaven. A third, still more moderate group of Millenarianists, which is not yet extinct, contents itself with asserting that an era of universal peace and tranquillity will precede the second coming of Christ, to be suddenly interrupted by the great apostasy and the forerunners of Anti-Christ. 2. REFUTATION OF CHILIASM.—Chiliasm in both its forms is untenable. a) Heretical Chiliasm stands condemned in the light of the moral law, which excludes intemperance and unchastity from the kingdom of Heaven. It is blasphemous and an insult to God to assert that Christ, who is all-holy, will found an earthly paradise for libertines. No wonder even those Fathers and ecclesiastical writers who entertained Chiliastic ideas vigorously condemned this grossly sensual species of Millenarianism as heretical. b) It is not so easy to refute the more moderate form of Chiliasm, for it seems to have a basis in Sacred Scripture and primitive Tradition. The New Testament as well as the early creeds speak of the Resurrection of the flesh, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world in terms which make it apparent that these three events are to follow one another in close succession, leaving no time for a millennium. α) The favorite passage of the Chiliasts is in the Apocalypse and reads as follows: “And I beheld an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.… They [i. e. the just] came to life again, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead came not to life until the thousand years were accomplished. This is the first resurrection.… And when the thousand years are accomplished, Satan shall be loosed from his prison, and he shall come forth to lead astray the nations which are in the four corners of the earth …” This is undeniably one of the most difficult and obscure passages found in Sacred Scripture, and no one has yet succeeded in explaining it satisfactorily. But it proves nothing in favor of Millenarianism, which has no claim to our assent unless it can show that its tenets do not conflict with the general teaching of the Bible. Among the more probable interpretations of the Johannine text suggested by Catholic writers we may mention that of St. Augustine, which was adopted by Pope St. Gregory the Great. These two Fathers think that the imprisonment of Satan refers to the first coming of our Lord, and his temporary loosing to His second coming (parousia) at the reign with His saints on earth (the “first resurrection”) signifies the kingdom of Heaven, where the Blessed reign under the headship of our Lord before the “second resurrection” (i. e. the Resurrection of the flesh). Similarly, the term “first death” is applied to the separation of the body from the soul, whereas “second death” refers to eternal damnation. If this theory is correct, the number one thousand is not to be taken literally, but simply indicates an indefinite period of considerable length. β) Despite appearances to the contrary, Chiliasm has no foundation in Tradition. Among its early advocates Lactantius, Nepos, Commodian, and Victorinus may, in the light of the Decretum Gelasianum, be set aside as worthless witnesses. The same could be said of Sulpicius Severus if he were to be reckoned among the Chiliasts, which is, however, extremely doubtful, as his extant writings contain no trace of this error. Of the remaining writers who are quoted in favor of Chiliasm we may disregard Papias because he was uncritical, and Tertullian because he was a heretic when he embraced Millenarianism. St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus, the only two remaining witnesses who are absolutely trustworthy, did not inculcate Chiliasm as an article of faith, but merely proposed it as a personal opinion. Whether St. Melito, Bishop of Sardes, harbored Millenarian notions, is uncertain. St. Hippolytus, who is numbered among the Chiliasts by Bonwetsch, has not written a single line, in the works that have come down to us, which must necessarily be interpreted in a Chiliastic sense. Bonwetsch himself is constrained to admit that Hippolytus discarded some of the eschatological notions held by Irenaeus and Tertullian. Among the opponents of Chiliasm were Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, and Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria, whom Eusebius honored with the title of Great and St. Athanasius called a Doctor of the Catholic Church. READINGS:—J. B. Paganini, Das Ende der Welt oder die Wiederkunft unseres Herrn, 2nd ed., Ratisbon 1882.—J. Bautz, Weltgericht und Weltende, Mayence 1886.—J. Sigmund, Das Ende der Zeiten mit einem Nachblick in die Ewigkeit, oder das Weltgericht mit seinen Ursachen, Vorzeichen und Folgen, Salzburg 1892.—J. A. McHugh in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, pp. 552 sq.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, 3 Vols., St. Louis 1910–1916, see Index s. v. “Judgment.”—St. Thomas, S. Theol., Supplem., qu. 49–91.—B. J. Otten, S. J., A Manual of the History of Dogmas, Vol. II, St. Louis 1918, pp. 422 sqq. On Chiliasm see H. Corrodi, Kritische Geschichte des Chiliasmus, 1794.—H. Klee, De Chiliasmo Primorum Saeculorum, Mayence 1825.—Wagner, Der Chiliasmus in den ersten Jahrhunderten, 1849.—J. N. Schneider, Die chiliastische Doktrin und ihr Verhältnis zur christlichen Glaubenslehre (pro-Chiliastic), Schaffhausen 1859.—J. P. Kirsch, art. “Millennium,” in Vol. X of the Catholic Encyclopedia, pp. 307–310.—Chiapelli, Le Idee Millenarie dei Cristiani, Naples 1888.—L. Guy, Le Millénarisme dans ses Origines et son Développement, Paris 1904.—Franzelin, De Scriptura et Traditione, P. II, thes. 16, Rome 1896.—H. Kihn, Patrologie, Vol. I, pp. 120 sqq., Paderborn 1904.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, Vol. I, St. Louis 1910 (see Index s. v. “Millenarianism”).—Shirley Jackson, The Millennial Hope, Chicago 1918.

I thought Fr. Pohle's opinion would be a worthwhile addition to the discussion:

Eschatology or the Catholic Doctrine of the Last Things A Dogmatic Treatise Rev. Joseph Pohle Ph.D. D.D SECTION 2 CHILIASM, OR MILLENARIANISM 1. CHILIASM IN ITS TWO FORMS.—There are two forms of Chiliasm or Millenarianism. The exaggerated form is heretical, while the more moderate is simply erroneous. a) The heretical form of Chiliasm may be traced partly to the Jєωιѕн expectation of a temporal Messias and partly to the apocryphal writings of the Old Testament, which abound in fables. The Chiliasts of this school conceived the millennium as a period of unbridled sensual indulgence. Eusebius the church-historian says of Cerinthus, a Gnostic heretic who flourished towards the end of the first century: “He held that at some time in the future Christ would reign on earth; and as he was addicted to the pleasures of the flesh, he imagined that the reign of God would consist of such things.” This error was shared by the ancient Ebionites and Apollinarianists and, in a somewhat more respectable form, still persists among the Mormons and Irvingites. b) Moderate Chiliasm had a number of adherents among Patristic writers, notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Nepos, Commodian, Victorinus of Pettau, and Lactantius. Its favorite text was Apoc. 20:1 sqq. Papias believed that the Resurrection of the flesh would be followed by a glorious reign of Christ, in which the Saints would enjoy a superabundance of earthly pleasures for a thousand years. These pleasures, however, were to be spiritual, or at least morally licit. In developing this idea its champions parted ways. Some expected the millennium between the General Judgment and the Resurrection of the dead, while others believed it would occur after the General Resurrection, immediately before the assumption of the just into Heaven. A third, still more moderate group of Millenarianists, which is not yet extinct, contents itself with asserting that an era of universal peace and tranquillity will precede the second coming of Christ, to be suddenly interrupted by the great apostasy and the forerunners of Anti-Christ. 2. REFUTATION OF CHILIASM.—Chiliasm in both its forms is untenable. a) Heretical Chiliasm stands condemned in the light of the moral law, which excludes intemperance and unchastity from the kingdom of Heaven. It is blasphemous and an insult to God to assert that Christ, who is all-holy, will found an earthly paradise for libertines. No wonder even those Fathers and ecclesiastical writers who entertained Chiliastic ideas vigorously condemned this grossly sensual species of Millenarianism as heretical. b) It is not so easy to refute the more moderate form of Chiliasm, for it seems to have a basis in Sacred Scripture and primitive Tradition. The New Testament as well as the early creeds speak of the Resurrection of the flesh, the Last Judgment, and the end of the world in terms which make it apparent that these three events are to follow one another in close succession, leaving no time for a millennium. α) The favorite passage of the Chiliasts is in the Apocalypse and reads as follows: “And I beheld an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.… They [i. e. the just] came to life again, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead came not to life until the thousand years were accomplished. This is the first resurrection.… And when the thousand years are accomplished, Satan shall be loosed from his prison, and he shall come forth to lead astray the nations which are in the four corners of the earth …” This is undeniably one of the most difficult and obscure passages found in Sacred Scripture, and no one has yet succeeded in explaining it satisfactorily. But it proves nothing in favor of Millenarianism, which has no claim to our assent unless it can show that its tenets do not conflict with the general teaching of the Bible. Among the more probable interpretations of the Johannine text suggested by Catholic writers we may mention that of St. Augustine, which was adopted by Pope St. Gregory the Great. These two Fathers think that the imprisonment of Satan refers to the first coming of our Lord, and his temporary loosing to His second coming (parousia) at the reign with His saints on earth (the “first resurrection”) signifies the kingdom of Heaven, where the Blessed reign under the headship of our Lord before the “second resurrection” (i. e. the Resurrection of the flesh). Similarly, the term “first death” is applied to the separation of the body from the soul, whereas “second death” refers to eternal damnation. If this theory is correct, the number one thousand is not to be taken literally, but simply indicates an indefinite period of considerable length. β) Despite appearances to the contrary, Chiliasm has no foundation in Tradition. Among its early advocates Lactantius, Nepos, Commodian, and Victorinus may, in the light of the Decretum Gelasianum, be set aside as worthless witnesses. The same could be said of Sulpicius Severus if he were to be reckoned among the Chiliasts, which is, however, extremely doubtful, as his extant writings contain no trace of this error. Of the remaining writers who are quoted in favor of Chiliasm we may disregard Papias because he was uncritical, and Tertullian because he was a heretic when he embraced Millenarianism. St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus, the only two remaining witnesses who are absolutely trustworthy, did not inculcate Chiliasm as an article of faith, but merely proposed it as a personal opinion. Whether St. Melito, Bishop of Sardes, harbored Millenarian notions, is uncertain. St. Hippolytus, who is numbered among the Chiliasts by Bonwetsch, has not written a single line, in the works that have come down to us, which must necessarily be interpreted in a Chiliastic sense. Bonwetsch himself is constrained to admit that Hippolytus discarded some of the eschatological notions held by Irenaeus and Tertullian. Among the opponents of Chiliasm were Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, and Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria, whom Eusebius honored with the title of Great and St. Athanasius called a Doctor of the Catholic Church. READINGS:—J. B. Paganini, Das Ende der Welt oder die Wiederkunft unseres Herrn, 2nd ed., Ratisbon 1882.—J. Bautz, Weltgericht und Weltende, Mayence 1886.—J. Sigmund, Das Ende der Zeiten mit einem Nachblick in die Ewigkeit, oder das Weltgericht mit seinen Ursachen, Vorzeichen und Folgen, Salzburg 1892.—J. A. McHugh in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, pp. 552 sq.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, 3 Vols., St. Louis 1910–1916, see Index s. v. “Judgment.”—St. Thomas, S. Theol., Supplem., qu. 49–91.—B. J. Otten, S. J., A Manual of the History of Dogmas, Vol. II, St. Louis 1918, pp. 422 sqq. On Chiliasm see H. Corrodi, Kritische Geschichte des Chiliasmus, 1794.—H. Klee, De Chiliasmo Primorum Saeculorum, Mayence 1825.—Wagner, Der Chiliasmus in den ersten Jahrhunderten, 1849.—J. N. Schneider, Die chiliastische Doktrin und ihr Verhältnis zur christlichen Glaubenslehre (pro-Chiliastic), Schaffhausen 1859.—J. P. Kirsch, art. “Millennium,” in Vol. X of the Catholic Encyclopedia, pp. 307–310.—Chiapelli, Le Idee Millenarie dei Cristiani, Naples 1888.—L. Guy, Le Millénarisme dans ses Origines et son Développement, Paris 1904.—Franzelin, De Scriptura et Traditione, P. II, thes. 16, Rome 1896.—H. Kihn, Patrologie, Vol. I, pp. 120 sqq., Paderborn 1904.—J. Tixeront, History of Dogmas, Vol. I, St. Louis 1910 (see Index s. v. “Millenarianism”).—Shirley Jackson, The Millennial Hope, Chicago 1918.

DR, you say
For those who believe in the Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer version of a thousand years of earthly rule in peace for the Church when the saints will (in the future, but haven't yet) "reign with Christ a thousand years" (Apoc. 20:4)


I don't have Father Berry's book in front of me (it's lent out), but I don't remember him saying anything about the 1000 year Reign of Christ being in the future. Has anyone provided a page # for this? Like you, I side with the Church Fathers on this.

"...These prophecies will not be fulfilled before the time of Antichrist, since the Apocalypse clearly shows that he will come into a world harassed by paganism, apostacy, schism, and heresy. (Apocalypse ix, 20, 21) The Jєωs still unconverted, will accept him as Messias and assist in his warfare against the Church. Only after the defeat of Antichrist and the return of the Gentile nations to the Faith, will the Jєωs accept Christ as the true Messias. Then shall begin the universal reign of Christ over all peoples, and tribes, and tongues."

(p.192)

[4] And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Fascinating. All the more reason to hungrily anticipate the a Lapide translation.

And another reason to look into what Augustine wrote in City of God. Thanks again.

BTW, I was quite naughty on the phone with Loreto today. I asked the man if Ryan Grant were the translator. Thankfully he seemed not quite familiar with the name, and told me point blank that Grant was not the translator. LOL!!