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Author Topic: Question on the Sacraments  (Read 1303 times)

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Offline Pelele

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Question on the Sacraments
« on: October 14, 2013, 04:23:23 PM »
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  • What happens in the case of the recipient, when for whatever reason, the minister invalidates a Sacrament and no one notices anything went wrong?

    What if you are in a real Latin Mass, and the priest screws up in the consecration and invalidates it by omitting something or by skipping it and no one else notices? Do you, unaware that anything went wrong, receive NOT the Holy Eucharist but only bread and no graces/benefits either?

    Can the deacons hear when the Priest consecrates, or is it totally inaudible and only the Priest can hear himself?

    This question is very hard for me because it scares me to think about these things.

    What if there is an infiltrator whose only purpose is to give invalid Sacraments? How can you ever be sure?

    If you say, well you will still receive the graces/benefits of the Sacrament because it's not your fault, well then what is the whole point of making sure the Sacraments are performed correctly and what is the point in for example De Defectibus where it gives a host of reasons which invalidate the Sacrament?

    There would be no point in ensuring Sacramental validity if in the end you receive the graces and benefits anyways.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013, 04:33:20 PM »
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  • This sounds like some version of scrupulosity.

    I wish this was my only concern about the validity of a mass.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Pelele

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 05:42:55 PM »
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  • I believe it is a legitimate question and a concern.

    I just want to know.

    The invalidity of the New Mess is clear-cut but i wonder if those novus ordos that go there thinking that it is real, receive any benefits/graces even though it is only bread.

    Well the reality is that even if something were going on there which there's no question there isn't, 99% of them would receive it to their own damnation anyways.

    Maybe it would be comparable to the case of the eastern schismatics: some of them have a valid Eucharist but only receive it to their own damnation because it is illicit and illegal and it avails them nothing.

    "Whoever receives the Lamb outside the Church has profaned".

    Offline TKGS

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 05:52:51 PM »
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  • It is my understanding that one must assume validity unless one has positive evidence to the contrary.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 05:55:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    I believe it is a legitimate question and a concern.

    I just want to know.

    The invalidity of the New Mess is clear-cut but i wonder if those novus ordos that go there thinking that it is real, receive any benefits/graces even though it is only bread.

    Well the reality is that even if something were going on there which there's no question there isn't, 99% of them would receive it to their own damnation anyways.

    Maybe it would be comparable to the case of the eastern schismatics: some of them have a valid Eucharist but only receive it to their own damnation because it is illicit and illegal and it avails them nothing.

    "Whoever receives the Lamb outside the Church has profaned".


    I never said it wasn't a valid concern, but I do think we need to be careful not to overthink things.  Like I said before, I unfortunately have bigger fish to fry so to speak as I have no valid mass to attend.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Sigismund

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 07:15:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    It is my understanding that one must assume validity unless one has positive evidence to the contrary.


    That has always been the Church's position on such things.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 07:17:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    It is my understanding that one must assume validity unless one has positive evidence to the contrary.


    Right.  A negative doubt is to be despised.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Pelele

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 09:17:53 PM »
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  • Did anyone actually read what i wrote?

    Obviously i know that validity is presumed, but the question was what happens with the recipient if it is invalidated and no one notices.

    Nothing?


    Offline Pelele

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 11:28:38 PM »
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  • Can the deacons or the others serving at the altar hear the priest when he consecrates in the Traditional Mass?

    Online Stubborn

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013, 04:35:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    What happens in the case of the recipient, when for whatever reason, the minister invalidates a Sacrament and no one notices anything went wrong?

    What if you are in a real Latin Mass, and the priest screws up in the consecration and invalidates it by omitting something or by skipping it and no one else notices? Do you, unaware that anything went wrong, receive NOT the Holy Eucharist but only bread and no graces/benefits either?

    Can the deacons hear when the Priest consecrates, or is it totally inaudible and only the Priest can hear himself?



    Yes, the servers can always hear the priest as he whispers or in a very low voice speaks very clearly, very distinctly, the words of Consecration over both the Host and Chalice with an intentional, unmistakable exactness. I've served for some priests who had a 3 or 4 second pause between each word.  

    There are no concerns for validity at any of the traditional group's TLM - I would not say the same about any of the Motu masses.

    If for any reason the consecration is invalid, our reception of the host would not make it valid. We would be receiving a wafer of bread.

    Depending on the priest and unless Mass is being celebrated in a small room or basement, the congregation will rarely ever hear the words of Consecration.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #10 on: October 15, 2013, 02:54:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    I believe it is a legitimate question and a concern.

    I just want to know.

    The invalidity of the New Mess is clear-cut but i wonder if those novus ordos that go there thinking that it is real, receive any benefits/graces even though it is only bread.

    Well the reality is that even if something were going on there which there's no question there isn't, 99% of them would receive it to their own damnation anyways.

    Maybe it would be comparable to the case of the eastern schismatics: some of them have a valid Eucharist but only receive it to their own damnation because it is illicit and illegal and it avails them nothing.

    "Whoever receives the Lamb outside the Church has profaned".


    I received for about 3 years for the most part of what I am morally certain was an invalid host, no I did not attend the New mass. I have attended the new mass no more times then I have hands and feet in my whole life. It has been approximately 3 years since I have even gone once to that abomination, Deo gratias. I also confessed to an invalid priest for quite some time, the good thing is that in between those confessions I would still got to a SSPX priest in between. The best I can say is that you receive a Spiritual communion and the graces will be greater to those who really fervently desire Our Blessed Lord in their souls. God will not smite you down for not knowing you were receiving invalid host, even if it was for 30 years in some cases. Be grateful that at some point you found out about some of the spiritual realities during this modernist crisis.

    Now with respect to the eastern schismatics, St. Thomas Aquinas and others teach that they do not confer grace (their sacraments).

    Yes there are infiltrators, you can bet that I would say some of them are even sincere! Just look at Mr. Nicholas Gruner (Catholic), Mr. Paul Kramer (Catholic), Mr. Patrick Perez (doubtfully Catholic) all of whom were ordained by Bishops in the New Rite which are invalid. They mean very well, I love to listen to them they have a lot of interesting stuff to say. However, objectively they are infiltrators because they personally know better about the problems of the New rite, yet they refuse for personal reasons or excuses they might have. If they had the proper humility they would undoubtedly get conditionally re-ordained for the common good of the faithful. Yet they refuse to get conditionally re-ordained, now please someone correct me if I am wrong (if they have been conditionally re-ordained). I know plenty of folks, that started their path through Gruner et al... He was the main reason they came to tradition, so I don't mean to bash on the good they have done. Its a miracle if someone can have a chance at hearing anything that is remotely traditional in doctrine nowadays. So it is definitely a huge blessing to have people that are teaching Orthodox Catholicism, although very misguided because of the whole lets recognize Francis problem. Half a loaf of bread when you are starving is better then none, many people can be able to discern later on the problems if they are only given an honest chance.
    https://keybase.io/saintaquinas , has all my other verified accounts including PGP key plus BTC address for bitcoin tip jar. A.M.D.G.


    Offline Pelele

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #11 on: October 15, 2013, 09:18:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher
    I received for about 3 years for the most part of what I am morally certain was an invalid host, no I did not attend the New mass. I have attended the new mass no more times then I have hands and feet in my whole life. It has been approximately 3 years since I have even gone once to that abomination, Deo gratias. I also confessed to an invalid priest for quite some time, the good thing is that in between those confessions I would still got to a SSPX priest in between. The best I can say is that you receive a Spiritual communion and the graces will be greater to those who really fervently desire Our Blessed Lord in their souls. God will not smite you down for not knowing you were receiving invalid host, even if it was for 30 years in some cases. Be grateful that at some point you found out about some of the spiritual realities during this modernist crisis.


    I am not asking if you will be punished or if God will smite you for receiving the novus ordo cookie; i am clear you won't be if you didn't know any better.

    The thing is, thinking logically, IF these novus ordos still get some benefits/graces by receiving the invalid cookie, then why would you ever tell them anything and jeopardize their situation? If they are receiving the same graces they would receive as if they really received the Blessed Eucharist, then why will you tell them anything since, if they convert, they will no longer go there and will be worse off without any graces?

    It's similar to when i wonder if any of those clueless novus ordos can be saved in their blissful ignorance: if they can, then there would be no point in telling them what's going on at all and this is all a matter of preference only, that is, that of being traditionalist, novus ordo, sede etc.

    You may know they are dead wrong and deceived, but if they can still be saved in that state, then why bother telling them anything at all? To each his own?

    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #12 on: October 15, 2013, 09:57:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher
    I received for about 3 years for the most part of what I am morally certain was an invalid host, no I did not attend the New mass. I have attended the new mass no more times then I have hands and feet in my whole life. It has been approximately 3 years since I have even gone once to that abomination, Deo gratias. I also confessed to an invalid priest for quite some time, the good thing is that in between those confessions I would still got to a SSPX priest in between. The best I can say is that you receive a Spiritual communion and the graces will be greater to those who really fervently desire Our Blessed Lord in their souls. God will not smite you down for not knowing you were receiving invalid host, even if it was for 30 years in some cases. Be grateful that at some point you found out about some of the spiritual realities during this modernist crisis.


    I am not asking if you will be punished or if God will smite you for receiving the novus ordo cookie; i am clear you won't be if you didn't know any better.

    The thing is, thinking logically, IF these novus ordos still get some benefits/graces by receiving the invalid cookie, then why would you ever tell them anything and jeopardize their situation? If they are receiving the same graces they would receive as if they really received the Blessed Eucharist, then why will you tell them anything since, if they convert, they will no longer go there and will be worse off without any graces?

    It's similar to when i wonder if any of those clueless novus ordos can be saved in their blissful ignorance: if they can, then there would be no point in telling them what's going on at all and this is all a matter of preference only, that is, that of being traditionalist, novus ordo, sede etc.

    You may know they are dead wrong and deceived, but if they can still be saved in that state, then why bother telling them anything at all? To each his own?


    Do you know of Catholics saying such things? Clearly if someone is happy with their parish, regardless of what anyone personally thinks of it, the subject's just not going to come up.

    It comes up when, uh, THEY (NOs) bring it up. They know you're Catholic and don't attend their parish, and often leave you alone, but when something questionable happens in their parish, they're usually the ones who ask us, right? Or they walk into an independent parish or SSPX chapel and they watch, then later might come back, and finally, again, ask us. (Unless it's family.) So if someone comes and asks, "Why is Fr. NOMasser never speaking about Hell anymore, and speaks only of 'gαy rights'?" we might answer that question, but I don't think we're going to launch into "your rite is invalid and you'll burn in Hell aargh!"  :laugh1: No; we sort of answer questions put to us, right? Honey draws more flies and all that? We WANT people at Mass, in the pews, worshiping God.

    Even then, I think it's a good idea to refer questioners to the priest. (Though we don't try to miss opportunities, and my husband will field questions if it's a good moment; lots of the men will, too, at coffee hour. But we don't want to come off like we're desperate; it's a blessing and grace to worship at Mass. Mass speaks for itself.)

    At least, I know of nobody who goes around banging NO attendees in the head with picket signs saying, "Yo, your mass is invalid!" —That simply doesn't happen. THEY bring it up.
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline poche

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #13 on: October 16, 2013, 12:41:29 AM »
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  • This issue was discussed by St Catherine of Sienna in her Dialogs.

    Offline Machabees

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    Question on the Sacraments
    « Reply #14 on: October 16, 2013, 01:14:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    What happens in the case of the recipient, when for whatever reason, the minister invalidates a Sacrament and no one notices anything went wrong?  [It is an invalid Sacrament.  The "recipient" will not receive Sacramental graces; only graces from God in your desire to receive Him (actual graces), the same as, if you were at home praying with the same desire to receive Him with no Sacrament present.]

    What if you are in a real Latin Mass, and the priest screws up in the consecration and invalidates it by omitting something or by skipping it and no one else notices? Do you, unaware that anything went wrong, receive NOT the Holy Eucharist but only bread and no graces/benefits either?  [Correct.  No Sacramental graces; only actual graces out of Love of God in wanting to receive Him.]

    Can the deacons hear when the Priest consecrates, [Yes.  The Priest must be in a quiet tone for this very fact.]  or is it totally inaudible and only the Priest can hear himself?

    (...)


    These are good and important questions.

    We live in times that the prelates of the Church are constantly scandalizing and confusing the faithful.  Knowing your Faith, and Catechism, is the only answer to get through this mess; and to help others.

    Point in fact.  I have been witness to a SSPX priest who was distracted and forgot to consecrate the wine.  He skipped right over it.  I was obliged to encourage a SSPX Brother, who saw it also, to go up there to the Altar and let the Priest know; he did; the priest was obviously embarrassed; and turned the pages back to the words of consecration for the wine and had then proceeded to consecrate it.  

    Afterwards, the priest thanked us very much for not committing a sacrilege from himself.  He did regret it profusely.  It happens...