Author Topic: Question For Sedevacantists (Read 2530 times)

Cantarella · « **on:** October 06, 2013, 07:18:11 PM »

f the present hierarchy of the Church is no hierarchy at all but a gathering of false bishops and priests appointed by anti-popes, where do you take the sacraments, which only the Catholic Church is a dispenser of?

I mean the sacraments on a visible, tangible, and proper form.

If the Seat of Peter has been vacant a half a century ago it means that there a lot of unfortunate "Catholics", myself included, who have not even been baptized and therefore never have been able to acquire valid Sacraments of the Church. All of this leads to an invisible Church, made up of believers "spiritually" subject to the Faith. Quite opposite to what the Catholic Church has always been : visible .

Jerry · « **Reply #1 on:** October 06, 2013, 08:34:05 PM »

Cantarella,

There has never been a time in the history of the world in which the sacraments were available to everyone throughout the world. That is not the point to visibility. What visibility means is the reference to the Catholic faithful who externally profess the one true religion. Their number and/or geographical location are irrelevant.

"Even if Catholics faithful to traditionare reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." St. Athanasius

The Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible provided the following commentary on Apoc. 11:12 stating:
The churches consecrated to the true God, are so much diminished in number, that they are represented by St. john as one church; its ministers officiate at one altar, and all the true faithful are so few, with respect to the bulk of mankind, that the evangelist sees them assembled in one temple, to pay their adorations to the Most High."

"But yet when the Son of man cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"

Your baptism is still valid and without priests we can still make a perfect act of contrition.

Malleus 01 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 06, 2013, 08:55:06 PM »

The Gates of Hell have not prevailed. There are Valid Bishops and Priests through out the world. From them come Valid Sacraments.

The Truth stands on its own merit. No one has to listen to what any Traditional Catholic says.

Eyes are opened by GOD's Grace.

If you want to know the truth - there is simply no shortcut.

Pray the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary - The Joyful Sorrowful and Glorious Mysteries

Amend your lives and give up sin and vice.

Make perfect acts of contrition.

Offer fastings sacrifices and sufferings for the greater honor and glory of Almighty GOD

These things will Lead you to a TRUE MASS. There you can recieve the SACRAMENTS.

Going to any Church merely because it says Catholic on the sign out Front - isnt going to give you the Peace you seek.

The TRUTH is given to man by GOD not men. If you really want his TRUTH - then Ask HIM.

Pax Vobis

Cantarella · « **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2013, 09:01:15 PM »

Quote from: Malleus 01

The Gates of Hell have not prevailed. There are Valid Bishops and Priests through out the world. From them come Valid Sacraments.

The Truth stands on its own merit. No one has to listen to what any Traditional Catholic says.

Eyes are opened by GOD's Grace.

If you want to know the truth - there is simply no shortcut.

Pray the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary - The Joyful Sorrowful and Glorious Mysteries

Amend your lives and give up sin and vice.

Make perfect acts of contrition.

Offer fastings sacrifices and sufferings for the greater honor and glory of Almighty GOD

These things will Lead you to a TRUE MASS. There you can recieve the SACRAMENTS.

Going to any Church merely because it says Catholic on the sign out Front - isnt going to give you the Peace you seek.

The TRUTH is given to man by GOD not men. If you really want his TRUTH - then Ask HIM.

Pax Vobis

So you are a believer of the Hierarchy in Exile, then? There is in fact a Hierarchy but it is just hidden?

Cantarella · « **Reply #4 on:** October 06, 2013, 09:14:19 PM »

Quote from: Jerry

Cantarella,

There has never been a time in the history of the world in which the sacraments were available to everyone throughout the world. That is not the point to visibility. What visibility means is the reference to the Catholic faithful who externally profess the one true religion. Their number and/or geographical location are irrelevant.

"Even if Catholics faithful to traditionare reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." St. Athanasius

The Haydock version of the Douay-Rheims Bible provided the following commentary on Apoc. 11:12 stating:
The churches consecrated to the true God, are so much diminished in number, that they are represented by St. john as one church; its ministers officiate at one altar, and all the true faithful are so few, with respect to the bulk of mankind, that the evangelist sees them assembled in one temple, to pay their adorations to the Most High."

"But yet when the Son of man cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"

Your baptism is still valid and without priests we can still make a perfect act of contrition.

:shocked: So you are saying that sacraments nor priests are really necessary in Catholicism? Faith alone suffices, "sola fide"? With all due respect, Jerry, that sounds like protestant thinking at its best.

Can someone cite where in the Infallible Magisterium of The Holy Mother Church says that Catholics can be saved by Faith alone without the sacraments?

Malleus 01 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 06, 2013, 09:25:13 PM »

I am a believer in how Heresy causes the Truth to be obscured. I am not a Catholic who laments the State of the World. The Church consists of the Church Triumphant the Church Suffering and the Church Militant. Ours is a living Church with millions of Members who have lived for two thousand years. If in Our Age - Heresy has obscured Truth for some - the answer is the same as in all AGES. Be Catholic. We are in the world but we are not of the world. Therefore , Our Faith should always be joyful.

Since our Church is two thousand years old - Its Truths and Dogmas are firmly established. They do not change nor do they evolve. Those beliefs are rooted in hegelian philosophic thought. The Catholic Church is thomistic in philosophic thought. The attacks on Holy Mother the Church exists in not merely the visible but in the invisible understandings of the truth itself.

But Our Lord clearly stated in Scripture - "Heaven and Earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass away. "

When you see the current hierarchy - all they ever do is talk about Vatican II. Because they embraced Heresy with Vatican II - Evolution - New age philosophy- the tenets of masonry - et al. It is no longer Catholic.

There is no way around that.

It says in Scripture , " Whereever the Body is there will the eagles be gathered. "

Traditional Catholics didnt leave the Church the Modernists led the Church away from Catholicism.

As History progresses Heresies come and heresies go but the Will of GOD is served in all ages by men of good will.

The Holy Mass and Sacraments are available. Heretics cannot dispense them.

Jerry · « **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2013, 09:26:16 PM »

No, that is not what I said. I do not ascribe to the Sola Fide argument. Although it seems that is what you may have preferred that I say.

I stated that the Baptism is still valid. That is hardly a news bulletin and is the position of all traditional orders. It is also commonly known that in an emergency even the laity can Baptize.

Of course it is preferable to have a legit priest for confession and particularly for extreme unction. But it has been the long standing teaching of the Church that a perfect act of contrition is acceptable to God. That does not diminish the sacraments, it is what the Church has always taught.

Cantarella · « **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2013, 09:43:01 PM »

Quote from: Jerry

No, that is not what I said. I do not ascribe to the Sola Fide argument. Although it seems that is what you may have preferred that I say.

I stated that the Baptism is still valid. That is hardly a news bulletin and is the position of all traditional orders. It is also commonly known that in an emergency even the laity can Baptize.

Of course it is preferable to have a legit priest for confession and particularly for extreme unction. But it has been the long standing teaching of the Church that a perfect act of contrition is acceptable to God. That does not diminish the sacraments, it is what the Church has always taught.

Ok, what about Holy Communion for example? Where do sedevacantists can take a visible, tangible, physical host if there are not valid priests anywhere?

Do we agree that the physical host for the Catholic means Our Lord Himself. Not in spirit but in actual matter? Do we agree that you need to take this Eucharist in order to be saved? And actual host administered by a valid priest?

"Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you" John 6:53

What I am seeing here is that Malleus01 thinks that The Holy Mass and Sacraments are still available. Please PM and tell me where exactly can I find them. I am on the position that I definitely need the sacraments in order to be saved, only dispensed by the Holy Catholic Church.

Jerry seems to be more of the position that it is "preferable" to have valid Sacraments but if not, it is not a big deal, given that one holds the true Faith in their hearts. Again, that creates an invisible Church of only souls but not bodies, because there are not tangible sacraments.

eddiearent · « **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2013, 09:48:08 PM »

Bishop Sanborn brought up the faith that many faithful in Japan kept and passed down the faith (e.g. the rosary and other devotions) without priests for years until the missionaries were able to return. If you have souls that are sincere and faithful, they will persevere.

Mabel · « **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2013, 10:06:44 PM »

There are many instances where Catholics have been cut off from the sacraments, sometimes even generations have lived with only baptism and marriage, as those can be confected without a priest.

As for me, I go to CMRI and those who were ordained through the lines of Abp. Lefebrve. There are other valid priests out there, some I choose to avoid, others I live too far away from to research. I'd go to an elderly priest ordained in the old rite, if one were available, he would be my first choice. Actually, there are situations like that out there, sent, valid clergy are still saying the mass.

Cantarella · « **Reply #10 on:** October 07, 2013, 01:17:48 AM »

Quote from: Mabel

There are many instances where Catholics have been cut off from the sacraments, sometimes even generations have lived with only baptism and marriage, as those can be confected without a priest.

As for me, I go to CMRI and those who were ordained through the lines of Abp. Lefebrve. There are other valid priests out there, some I choose to avoid, others I live too far away from to research. I'd go to an elderly priest ordained in the old rite, if one were available, he would be my first choice. Actually, there are situations like that out there, sent, valid clergy are still saying the mass.

So how a sedevacantist would judge who is a valid priest?

If the Church in fact has been leaded by anti-popes for half a century, thus producing invalid sacraments, a false priesthood and an flawed ecclesiastical structure, how do you know who is a valid priest? charisma?

If the Holy Catholic Church is now constituted of individual priests in their respective chapels, none of whom have valid jurisdiction, nor report to anyone higher than themselves, this leads to a cultish protestant Church. Not Catholic.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #11 on:** October 07, 2013, 01:50:44 AM »

A valid priest is a priest ordained in an undoubtedly Catholic rite by an undoubtedly Catholic bishop. This means that a priest is ordained in the old rite of ordination, by a bishop who was consecrated in the old rite of episcopal consecration. All of the traditional orders can boast to have valid priests, and there are certainly some left in the NO, though. I have heard claims that there are NO priests operating in the SSPX who were not conditionally ordained, but I have never heard more than claims-- I have yet to see any evidence presented to support this belief.

When dealing with Novus Ordo priests, the general rule of thumb is to avoid them if they were ordained after 1969, and in particular if the ordination was done by a bishop consecrated after 1968.

By the way, this isn't really a sedevacantist issue. In better days, all traditional Catholics were wary of the new rites of Holy Orders. Archbishop Lefebvre was.

2Vermont · « **Reply #12 on:** October 07, 2013, 04:47:21 AM »

These are all great questions Cantarella and I do believe they are sincere (as opposed to some of the more recent threads I have seen which are only meant to put SV's on the defensive and to prove the OP's intellectual and spiritual prowess). I think the main objection I have is when sedes are called Protestants. However, I do understand this thinking because I once thought the same thing because I was ignorant of the position.

Protestants opposed the Catholic Faith. Sedes oppose the VII Faith (which is not the Catholic Faith) and defend the Catholic Faith. This is not the 1500's. This is a whole different set of circuмstances.

I don't think anyone has the answer to this crisis because it is unprecedented. The fact that it is unprecedented is the reason why it is such a crisis. We can't look back on church history and say, yep, that's what we do; that's what we believe; that's how we respond.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #13 on:** October 07, 2013, 01:51:56 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

These are all great questions Cantarella and I do believe they are sincere (as opposed to some of the more recent threads I have seen which are only meant to put SV's on the defensive and to prove the OP's intellectual and spiritual prowess). I think the main objection I have is when sedes are called Protestants. However, I do understand this thinking because I once thought the same thing because I was ignorant of the position.

Protestants opposed the Catholic Faith. Sedes oppose the VII Faith (which is not the Catholic Faith) and defend the Catholic Faith. This is not the 1500's. This is a whole different set of circuмstances.

I don't think anyone has the answer to this crisis because it is unprecedented. The fact that it is unprecedented is the reason why it is such a crisis. We can't look back on church history and say, yep, that's what we do; that's what we believe; that's how we respond.

Very well stated 2Vermont.

2Vermont · « **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2013, 03:09:41 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: 2Vermont
These are all great questions Cantarella and I do believe they are sincere (as opposed to some of the more recent threads I have seen which are only meant to put SV's on the defensive and to prove the OP's intellectual and spiritual prowess). I think the main objection I have is when sedes are called Protestants. However, I do understand this thinking because I once thought the same thing because I was ignorant of the position.

Protestants opposed the Catholic Faith. Sedes oppose the VII Faith (which is not the Catholic Faith) and defend the Catholic Faith. This is not the 1500's. This is a whole different set of circuмstances.

I don't think anyone has the answer to this crisis because it is unprecedented. The fact that it is unprecedented is the reason why it is such a crisis. We can't look back on church history and say, yep, that's what we do; that's what we believe; that's how we respond.

Very well stated 2Vermont.

Well I thank ya because I posted that at around 5:30 in the morning.