Author Topic: Question For Sedevacantists ONLY  (Read 1963 times)

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Offline Alexandria

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Question For Sedevacantists ONLY
« on: April 03, 2010, 12:27:03 PM »
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  • It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that the Catholic Church needs at least one Bishop with jurisdiction or the entire house of cards collapses.   If I remember correctly, this even perplexed John Lane.

    What do the sedevacantists have to say about this?

      :wave:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #1 on: April 03, 2010, 12:51:17 PM »
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  • Well, although I'm not a sedevacantist per se, let me take a crack at it.  During ANY sedevacante period, the entire jurisdiction of the Church goes into an extraordinary state, since all jurisdiction derives from the Pope--it's in a kindof dormant state where it's supplied by the Church for all ordinary day-to-day activities that typically require jurisdiction.  That's why Church law declares that nothing new can be enacted during sedevacante--sede vacante nihil innovetur.  So this would be no different--except for the unprecedented length of this hiatus.



    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #2 on: April 03, 2010, 12:58:35 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, are you quite sure about this?  Have you studied the matter?  And, if so, could you explain it to me in simple terminology?


    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 04:30:24 PM »
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  • Let me make the point clearer as best as I can with my limited understanding of it.

    The Church to continue would need at least one bishop today who had received his jurisdiction from a pope or else that would be the end of apostolicity.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #4 on: April 03, 2010, 05:00:32 PM »
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  • Well, there are in fact actually a small handful of Pius XII bishops still around.

    And the material-formal sedevacantists would have an answer for this.

    I'm not sure that the principle that at least one bishop who received jurisdiction from a pope actually holds water, since, as I said, that jurisdiction basically ceases when the pope dies.  It does not carry over except through the Church supplying it for the good of souls (i.e. for valid Confessions, etc.)  Other than those basic juridical functions, the Church goes dormant juridically (cf. the canon law principle I cited earlier).  During any sedevacante, the principle is that the Church supplies that ordinary jurisdiction.  That's what I have read about sedevacante periods (the more ordinary ones in the past).  I'll try to look it up when I have more time--which may not be until Monday.



    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #5 on: April 03, 2010, 05:35:59 PM »
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  • Thanks, Ladislaus.

     :wink:

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 08:31:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Well, there are in fact actually a small handful of Pius XII bishops still around.

    And the material-formal sedevacantists would have an answer for this.

    I'm not sure that the principle that at least one bishop who received jurisdiction from a pope actually holds water, since, as I said, that jurisdiction basically ceases when the pope dies.  It does not carry over except through the Church supplying it for the good of souls (i.e. for valid Confessions, etc.)  Other than those basic juridical functions, the Church goes dormant juridically (cf. the canon law principle I cited earlier).  During any sedevacante, the principle is that the Church supplies that ordinary jurisdiction.  That's what I have read about sedevacante periods (the more ordinary ones in the past).  I'll try to look it up when I have more time--which may not be until Monday.



    Ladislaus, do you have a source for this? I believe it is incorrect.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 01:57:15 PM »
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  • The simple answer is that they have "supplied jurisdiction" as opposed to ordinary jurisdiction.  This essentially means that "in an emergency we can break the rules" i.e. epikeia.   So we are waiting for our confessions and marriages to become valid in the future, on the presumption that the future Pope will retroactively give jurisdiction to the sedevacantist clergy.  

    If the future pontiff decides, like SSPX, that the VII Popes were real Popes -- don't worry, this isn't going to happen, I'm just speaking hypothetically -- then our sedevacantist priests will probably not be given this after-the-fact jurisdiction.  But even then, we have a safety net.  This is that our priests have a "colored title."  This means, roughly, that they are objectively out of the Church, but since we believe them to be in the Church, our subjective intentions are taken into account by God.  In this case, they would be objectively but not subjectively schismatic.  Since we believe them to be in the true Church, we can have hope that our confessions are not in vain.

    During the Great Western Schism, there were rival Popes, but only one of them was objectively the real Pope, and only his clergy objectively were the real clergy.  But that doesn't mean that all those who followed the false, objectively schismatic Avignon line of Popes are damned.  Their priests and bishops would have had colored titles.  Someone confessing to them would have believed they were confessing to a Catholic priest; they had no intention to reject the Church, or to be schismatic.  So they are really inside in the eyes of God, one hopes.

    The jureur priests of the French Revolution, the Revolutionary priests, were objectively schismatic.  But they had colored titles, and those who confessed to them were told by the Vatican that they did not need to re-confess.

    *****

    Since, on the basis of his having taught NFP, I don't think Pius XII was a Pope after 1951, the question of finding a bishop consecrated by him really means nothing to me, and the Siri thesis means nothing to me.  Considering you have to be, what, thirty years old or so to be a bishop, and even that would be rare, that means the youngest bishop with ordinary jurisdiction out there would be in his early 80s.  I know of no sedevacantist bishops who qualify.  

    Even if you accept that he was Pope until 1958, the youngest bishops with ordinary jurisdiction would be in their early-to-mid 70s, and we probably would have heard of someone like this by now, if he had become sedevacantist.  There are those who accept John XXIII as a true Pope and if so, you have gained yourself another couple of years.

    Not only that, but if a Pius XII bishop broke away from the VII Church, he might have ordinary jurisdiction, but those he ordained would not.  This is the case with Abp. Thuc who actually was made bishop by Pius XI and had ordinary jurisdiction, but that does not carry over to those Abp. Thuc consecrated.  Likewise, Abp. Lefebvre had ordinary jurisdiction, but the four bishops he consecrated did not.  Jurisdiction isn't passed on like genetics.  It has to be individually bestowed on each bishop by the Pope.  So don't worry about finding a bishop that has it, because if you do, it will be by a miracle of God.

    Ladislaus, do you or anyone else know the name of the late encyclical or address of Pius XII where he "decreed" that even if all the Cardinals are heretics they can still elect a valid Pope?  If you accept Pius XII as Pope, this will create big problems for you.  For me it is just another strike against him, showing that even during his pontificate, he was already establishing bulwarks to protect the future usurpers.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 02:05:08 PM »
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  • Correction:  "Not only that, but if a Pius XII bishop broke away from the VII Church, he might have ordinary jurisdiction, but those he ordained or consecrated would not."
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 05:47:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Ladislaus, do you have a source for this? I believe it is incorrect.


    No, I just remember reading about it somewhere and hearing it.  I haven't had a chance to research it further.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 05:54:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Ladislaus, do you or anyone else know the name of the late encyclical or address of Pius XII where he "decreed" that even if all the Cardinals are heretics they can still elect a valid Pope?  If you accept Pius XII as Pope, this will create big problems for you.  For me it is just another strike against him, showing that even during his pontificate, he was already establishing bulwarks to protect the future usurpers.


    No, I don't know the encyclical you mention.

    That's where "sedeprivationism" might hold the key.  They do hold that the jurisdiction could pass on materially even through formal heretics.


    Offline Elizabeth

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    « Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 11:25:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Well, there are in fact actually a small handful of Pius XII bishops still around.

    Where?!

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 11:29:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    The simple answer is that they have "supplied jurisdiction" as opposed to ordinary jurisdiction.  This essentially means that "in an emergency we can break the rules" i.e. epikeia.  So we are waiting for our confessions and marriages to become valid in the future, on the presumption that the future Pope will retroactively give jurisdiction to the sedevacantist clergy.


    We are speaking of ordinary jurisdiction here. Supplied jurisdiction is not ordinary by definition.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 11:51:40 AM »
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  • What's "sedeprivationism"?

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 12:01:17 PM »
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  • + Vincit veritas +

     

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