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Offline stevusmagnus

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Question for Sedes
« on: November 26, 2010, 09:17:44 PM »
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  • I want to ask how Sedes think the crisis will end.

    And I'm being sincere, because I've never really asked this of them before and I do want to know.

    Will we just be without a Pope until the Second Coming?

    Will God send a true Pope in some spectuacular fashion?

    Will BXVI have a revelation, turn into Pius X, and then we accept him as Pope?

    Do Sedes even accept enough Cardinals as having valid ordinations/ consecrations to even elect a valid Pope at this point? If not, how is that problem solved?

    Thanks.



    Offline Telesphorus

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 09:40:55 PM »
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  • How does it end if modernist bishops and Popes continue down the path they're on?  Don't the internal contradictions get worse and worse?  I'm not going to say I'm a sede but how can someone keep saying that the Pope is truly Pope?  If the moral theology manuals of the Church start to say it's okay for a diseased husband to use a prophylactic with his wife?  Do you believe that's the Church?  

    How could things ever get better with nearly all the Cardinals in the modernist camp?  

    The sede position requires no more miracles than another.

    I still don't know if I'm a sede, I'm not too keen on going to a sede chapel.  I'm unable to attend the local SSPX chapel.

    I've been attending the mass of a pre-Vatican II ordained Franciscan in the FSSP.

    In reality this is just the most obvious of the heretical things the Popes have done.

    For me I started to have grave doubts when I read about Pope John Paul's ideas about "mutual submission" - claiming Paul did not mean obedience.  That to me made me re-evaluate the way I was judging these Popes and made me much less able to simply deny the sede position.  How could the Pope in an encyclical have the temerity to correct St. Paul?


    Offline LM

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 10:21:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    How does it end if modernist bishops and Popes continue down the path they're on?  Don't the internal contradictions get worse and worse?  I'm not going to say I'm a sede but how can someone keep saying that the Pope is truly Pope?  If the moral theology manuals of the Church start to say it's okay for a diseased husband to use a prophylactic with his wife?  Do you believe that's the Church?  

    How could things ever get better with nearly all the Cardinals in the modernist camp?  

    The sede position requires no more miracles than another.

    I still don't know if I'm a sede, I'm not too keen on going to a sede chapel.  I'm unable to attend the local SSPX chapel.

    I've been attending the mass of a pre-Vatican II ordained Franciscan in the FSSP.

    In reality this is just the most obvious of the heretical things the Popes have done.

    For me I started to have grave doubts when I read about Pope John Paul's ideas about "mutual submission" - claiming Paul did not mean obedience.  That to me made me re-evaluate the way I was judging these Popes and made me much less able to simply deny the sede position.  How could the Pope in an encyclical have the temerity to correct St. Paul?


    Here is something which troubles me greatly. The next/or future Pope could be one of Kiko Arguello's Neocatechumenal heretics.

    Offline OHCA

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #3 on: November 26, 2010, 10:36:59 PM »
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  • Your questions, Stevus, get to the heart of my concerns about the Sede position.  A break in the authoritative Apostolic chain does not seem anywise implied in the words of our Lord.  In fact, doesn't He promise just the opposite?

    This would amount to playing hide & seek with the Keys to the Kingdom, and the power to Bind & Loose!  I do not think this is ever going to happen, and especially not during such a morally tumultuous time as we have now.  I do not see how this could not make a mockery out of the Keys to the Kingdom, the power to Bind & Loose, and calling Peter the ROCK!  How could it be that this and the promise to be with the Apostles until the consummation of the world would not be a mockery, and how could it be that the gates of hell have not already prevailed?

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #4 on: November 26, 2010, 10:53:20 PM »
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  • Last Sunday's Gospel.

    http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47024.htm

    And Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple. [2] And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed. [3] And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? [4] And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: [5] For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.

    [6] And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: [8] Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.

    [11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. [12] And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. [13] But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

    [16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains: [17] And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat. [19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. [20] But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.

    [21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

    [26] If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. [27] For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be. [28] Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together. [29] And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #5 on: November 26, 2010, 10:56:05 PM »
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  • http://sedevacantist.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=871

    Quote
    "The writers of the Church tell us that in the latter days the city
    of Rome will probably become apostate from the Church and vicar of
    Jesns Christ; and that Rome will again be punished, for he will
    depart from it; and the judgment of God will fall on the place from
    which he once reigned over the nations of the world. For what is it
    that makes Rome sacred, but the presence of the vicar of Jesus Christ?
    What has it that it should be dear in the sight of God, save only the
    presence of the vicar of His Son ? Let the Church of Christ depart
    from Rome, and Rome will be no more in the eyes of God than Jerusalem
    of old. "

    "The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ, and its
    destruction by Antichrist, may be thought so new to many Catholics,
    that I think it well to recite the text of theologians in the greatest
    repute. First, Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states
    as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Viegas, Suarez, Bellarmine,
    and Bosius, that Rome shall apostatise from the faith, drive away the
    vicar of Christ, and return to its ancient Paganism. Malvenda's words
    are : — ' But Rome itself, in the last times of the world, will return to
    its ancient idolatry, power, and imperial greatness. It will cast out
    its pontiff, altogether apostatise from the Christian faith, terribly persecute
    the Church, shed the blood of the martyrs more cruelly than
    ever, and will recover its former state of abundant wealth, or even
    greater than it had under its first rulers.'

    "Lessius says : — ' In the time of Antichrist, Rome shall be destroyed,
    as we see openly from the thirteenth chapter of the Apocalypse ;'
    and again : — ' The woman whom thou sawest is the great city,
    which hath kingdom over the kings of the earth, in which is signified
    Rome in its impiety, such as it was in the time of St John, and shall
    be again at the end of the world.' And Bellarmine: — ' In the time of
    Antichrist Rome shall be desolated and burnt, as we learn from the
    sixteenth verse of the seventeenth chapter of the Apocalypse.' On
    which words the Jesuit Erbermann comments as follows : — ' We all
    confess, with Bellarmine, that the Roman people, a little before the
    end of the world, will return to Paganism, and drive out the Roman
    Pontiff.'" — The Present Crisis of the Holy See Tested by Prophecy, pp.
    87-89. By H. E. Manning, D.D.


    Offline faith3faith

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 01:17:43 AM »
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  • Saint Malachy's Prophecy of the last Pope which will be the Pope after Benedict..........

    "The last Pope, Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations during the most terrible persecution of the Church ever; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the fearsome Judge will judge His people on the day of Judgement. The End."

    Sounds like the last Pope will be a true Pope since the Prophecy says he will "nourish the sheep"

    Offline Dawn

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 07:47:26 AM »
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  • I am certain that when the time comes for the Holy Ghost to remove the Illegal Occupants to the Chair of St. Peter He will do so. This is only happening because it is what we deserve. He is sifting the goats from the lambs. He is testing people and seeing who follows the Illegal Occupants and who decides to learn their faith and be Catholic. It is not right for one to assume that the Sede position means that Christ's promise of the gates of Hell not prevailing is not true. Of course it is prevailing. We trust in God and in His Good Time to show us the way.

    With this in mind it is clear to see that Sedes hold on to the entire Faith with no compromise. And, that our Trust is in the Lord where it should be.


    Offline TKGS

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #8 on: November 27, 2010, 08:51:33 AM »
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  • I answered this question a while back in a post started years ago started by Matthew that contained a number of questions for sedevacantists.  To answer your question, first I must say that I don't speak for other sedevacantists nor do they speak for me.

    How will the crisis end?  I don't know.

    I do have a few ideas about how it might end, however.

    As the realisation that the See of Rome is vacant began to solidify, some Church theologians began to try to develop theological theories based on the writings of popes and theolgians of the past (most notably Saint Robert Bellarmine and others) as to how the crisis was possible.  The whole situation seemed to be impossible, yet there it was staring every Catholic in the face.

    One theory suggests that the Conciliar Pope is "materially" pope, but not "formally" pope--similar to the material/formal heresy argument.  He is filling the chair, so to speak, and has the power to govern secular matters, e.g., appointments, creating and suppressing dioceses, etc; but he has not the power to exercise papal authority (since he is an apostate and a heretic) and therefore cannot rule the Church in matters of faith and morals.  If this theory is correct, then we merely have to wait for a Catholic to be elected to the papacy.

    This is possible since we, individual sedevacantists, cannot possibly pass judgment on every single person attached to the Conciliar structures.  Most of us remember a time when we had the faith but were living in those structures trying to make sense of what was going on.  Surely, there are some priests, bishops, and maybe even cardinals that still have the Catholic faith but are simply too spiritually weak at this time to declare it.

    Should a Catholic be elected, it will be manifest in this way:  First, knowing that the validity of the new rites of ordination and consecration were questioned almost immediately after their promulgation, he will appoint a commission to study the matter.  The commission will either find that the new rites are intrinsically invalid or that the new rites are only sometimes valid due to various factors.  He will immediately suppress the new rites and the newly elected "pope" will then seek out all of the clearly valid bishops in the world including the Society bishops and some of the Thuc-line bishops and ask them to conditionally ordain and consecrate every Concilliar bishop in the world, including himself, in order to remove all doubts in the minds of the faithful.  He will also require all priests to be conditionally ordained.

    While he will not immediately supress the Novus Ordo, he, himself, will never say it and his example will cause, in a matter of a few years, render the Novus Ordo obsolete.  After a year or two, he will consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary along with all the bishops of the Catholic Church and within a short time, Russia will be converted to the Catholic faith.

    The secular press will never have anything good to say about him and he will eliminate all the ecuмenical nonsense calling on non-Catholics to convert to the True Faith or be condemned.  He will not be very tolerant.

    And, yes, it will take a few years before most sedevacantists accept him as a true pope.  

    Another possibility is that the Vatican will finally do something that even the SSPX cannot accept and I think it will be to allow the ordination of women.  This is when a large number of sedevacantist groups (which will now include the SSPX) will elect a true pope who will govern the true Church from Rome and the Conciliar Church will whither away in a matter of just a few years.  Soon, the secular Vatican will invite the true pope to lead them.

    There is also the possibility that there is a true pope whom we don't know.  I find this the least likely possibility.

    Of course, there is one other possibility.  The crisis will end with the coming of the Final Judgment.  This is not the resolution I wish for as I am not ready for judgment.

    As for other theories, they may be as equally plausible as any of these.  I can, however, imagine Catholics asking these same kinds of questions during the Arian Crisis and Catholics in England asking these kinds of questions during Elizabethan England.

    When a new Conciliar pope is elected, I will listen and watch.  If he continues down the road to destruction, I'll continue as I am.  If he makes an about face, I will look at him with renewed interest.

    I hope that answers your question, at least as far as I am concerned.

    Offline Alexandria

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #9 on: November 27, 2010, 12:48:01 PM »
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  • Stevus, you are assuming that somehow Our Lord hasn't made provisions for the conciliar church to retain some kind of jurisdiction.  

    The sedevacantists do not have all of the answers.  I don't think it is necessary for them to say that the VII ordination rite is invalid to bolster their position, or that that there are no longer any bishops and cardinals left in the conciliar church.    I think that we will find out when it is too late to change the course we have decided upon how Our Lord took care of things.

    This doesn't take away from the fact the the VII popes are not Catholic.  No true pope would do what JPII and BXVI have done.  If it doesn't seem so to you, that is probably because of one of two things:  (1) you are too young t remember the Church when She was truly Catholic, or (2) you have already been so desensitized to error and smut that you take it as normal.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #10 on: November 27, 2010, 01:57:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    How does it end if modernist bishops and Popes continue down the path they're on?  Don't the internal contradictions get worse and worse?  I'm not going to say I'm a sede but how can someone keep saying that the Pope is truly Pope?  If the moral theology manuals of the Church start to say it's okay for a diseased husband to use a prophylactic with his wife?  Do you believe that's the Church?  

    How could things ever get better with nearly all the Cardinals in the modernist camp?  

    The sede position requires no more miracles than another.

    I still don't know if I'm a sede, I'm not too keen on going to a sede chapel.  I'm unable to attend the local SSPX chapel.

    I've been attending the mass of a pre-Vatican II ordained Franciscan in the FSSP.

    In reality this is just the most obvious of the heretical things the Popes have done.

    For me I started to have grave doubts when I read about Pope John Paul's ideas about "mutual submission" - claiming Paul did not mean obedience.  That to me made me re-evaluate the way I was judging these Popes and made me much less able to simply deny the sede position.  How could the Pope in an encyclical have the temerity to correct St. Paul?


    So you think the crisis will never end? That's not a good belief to have. What do you think is the primary purpose of Consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? As soon as that Consecration is done the three days of darkness we know will not be far away. Of course, the Consecration is not alone needed for the three days of darkness. They will come even if Russia has not been Consecrated if the world gets bad enough. The Catholic Church will be completely restored as soon as the chastizement is over.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #11 on: November 27, 2010, 02:06:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    Stevus, you are assuming that somehow Our Lord hasn't made provisions for the conciliar church to retain some kind of jurisdiction.  

    The sedevacantists do not have all of the answers.  I don't think it is necessary for them to say that the VII ordination rite is invalid to bolster their position, or that that there are no longer any bishops and cardinals left in the conciliar church.    I think that we will find out when it is too late to change the course we have decided upon how Our Lord took care of things.

    This doesn't take away from the fact the the VII popes are not Catholic.  No true pope would do what JPII and BXVI have done.  If it doesn't seem so to you, that is probably because of one of two things:  (1) you are too young t remember the Church when She was truly Catholic, or (2) you have already been so desensitized to error and smut that you take it as normal.


    I think both reasons you mentioned are true for alot of people, but I think the main reason that most SSPX Catholics do not believe the current Pope is an anti-pope is that they simply feel it takes more than just modernism to make an anti-pope. Benedict is a modernist, no doubt. However, I don't think he meets enough qualifications to be an anti-pope. I think his biggest problem is that he is a coward. Apparently there are four different freemasonic lodges operating in the Vatican, which makes you wonder if the Pope is really the one making the calls. Regardless though, Benedict should stop being afraid that something bad will happen to him if he restores Tradition. He thought he would be killed after releasing the Motu Proprio in 2007. That's not enough to get the freemasons and communists out of the Church. If he makes the TLM even more widespread then alot of them will probably leave. One Cardinal I believe threatened to leave if Benedict started saying the TLM publicly.

    The point though is that we really have bigger issues than debating over whether or not Benedict XVI is true Pope. I personally feel Paul VI was likely an anti-pope, but I don't think Benedict is. He's a bad Pope, but we have had worse ones. Heck, Pope Formosus (the one who was thrown into the Tiber River) I do not think was ever officially declared an anti-pope by the Church as surprising as that is.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline GregorianChat

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #12 on: November 27, 2010, 06:23:42 PM »
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  • I can speculate all I want on how this crisis will end, but ultimately it's not a question that I need to answer.

    I'll leave it up to the Holy Ghost.
    2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

    Galatians Chapter 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a

    Offline Dawn

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #13 on: November 27, 2010, 06:43:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: GregorianChat
    I can speculate all I want on how this crisis will end, but ultimately it's not a question that I need to answer.

    I'll leave it up to the Holy Ghost.

    That is it exactly.  Trust the Holy Ghost. We really are a happy bunch aren't we? Have faith like a child.

    Offline insidebaseball

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    Question for Sedes
    « Reply #14 on: November 27, 2010, 07:40:31 PM »
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  • Whow, these responses don't sound like a bunch of proud rebels.  Maybe there has been alot of false judgements on people holding a sede position.