Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Question for Sedes  (Read 1931 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ByzCat3000

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1941
  • Reputation: +516/-147
  • Gender: Male
Question for Sedes
« on: September 08, 2020, 04:24:40 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I may have asked this before, its a question i have periodically, but I'm gonna raise this again.

    if you're a Sede, what exactly prevents the Sedevacantist bishops from holding a conclave and electing a pope?

    I mean pretty much every trad and especially every sede already agrees with some principle of "the normal rules don't apply during a crisis situation."  So why would it be that the CHurch couldn't produce for itself a pope?

    Even with Sedeprivationism, would having a non Catholic (under the sede paradigm) with a valid election to the pontificate that they couldn't receive really inhibit the  Church from producing for itself a new pope?  

    Like hypothetically, if the College of Cardinals somehow elected a Protestant to the papacy in the 1500s, OK that would be invalid, they could then elect another pope.  They wouldn't have to wait till the Protestant converted or died, right?

    What am I missing here?  'cause where I'm sitting right now, I understand (though don't agree with) the sede diagnosis, but they seem to write themselves into a corner on the solution.  

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2489
    • Reputation: +995/-1099
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #1 on: September 08, 2020, 05:00:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The issue of authority. If two different sede conclaves meet to elect popes, whose to say which, if either, was valid? I'm sure they'd find plenty of reasons to doubt the other's conclave. In the end, as with the Great Western Schism, creating new papal claimants just creates more confusion and uncertainty. 


    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1941
    • Reputation: +516/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #2 on: September 08, 2020, 05:05:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The issue of authority. If two different sede conclaves meet to elect popes, whose to say which, if either, was valid? I'm sure they'd find plenty of reasons to doubt the other's conclave. In the end, as with the Great Western Schism, creating new papal claimants just creates more confusion and uncertainty.
    Well the Great Western Schism is different.  We knew with certainty *one* of those three guys are pope.  Maybe not which one.  But we know one of them is.  So you can't elect a pope.

    They need to have ONE Sede conclave, elect somebody pope, if needed conditionally consecrate them in such a way that everyone agrees this person is a bishop, and then, presumably given their ultramontanism, this pope could authoritatively settle the issues between the different sede "clans."

    I really don't see any good *excuse* for them not to do this besides "we don't want to" or there really just is a weak Pope on Peter's Chair right now which would inhibit electing someone *else* the pope.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #3 on: September 08, 2020, 05:21:49 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, one obstacle is that he would have to be the Bishop of Rome.

    I’m not sure how a Bishop Sanborn (or whoever) would go about satisfying that requirement, while having no connection to Rome (unless maybe the Roman clergy somehow miraculously accepted him as such?).

    On the other hand, it is a bit more plausible with someone like Vigano: He’s known by them, and if he started getting traction because of disgust with Francis...?

    Such a turn of events would be tantamount to Francis losing universal peaceful acceptance, in which case, does the door open a crack?

    Of course, other things would have to happen as well: The bishops would need to declare the fact of Francis’s heresies, and then a second declaration that in light of this, God had deposed him.  Otherwise the door would be open to competing claimants, setting the stage for another GWS.

    Difficult to imagine such scenarios playing out today, with the entire hierarchy awash in modernism, yet precisely because of that, the restoration of the Church will have to be miraculous whenever God sees fit.

    And who saw Vigano coming three years ago??
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1941
    • Reputation: +516/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #4 on: September 08, 2020, 05:27:26 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, one obstacle is that he would have to be the Bishop of Rome.

    I’m not sure how a Bishop Sanborn (or whoever) would go about satisfying that requirement, while having no connection to Rome (unless maybe the Roman clergy somehow miraculously accepted him as such?).

    On the other hand, it is a bit more plausible with someone like Vigano: He’s known by them, and if he started getting traction because of disgust with Francis...?

    Such a turn of events would be tantamount to Francis losing universal peaceful acceptance, in which case, does the door open a crack?

    Of course, other things would have to happen as well: The bishops would need to declare the fact of Francis’s heresies, and then a second declaration that in light of this, God had deposed him.  Otherwise the door would be open to competing claimants, setting the stage for another GWS.

    Difficult to imagine such scenarios playing out today, with the entire hierarchy awash in modernism, yet precisely because of that, the restoration of the Church will have to be miraculous whenever God sees fit.

    And who saw Vigano coming three years ago??
    Is it an absolute requirement that the Pope be a Bishop of Rome?

    And would he have to have a "Preexisting" connection to the diocese?

    I know there were a couple of "competing papal claimants" in history, but I forget if the true Pope was always in Rome or not.

    At any rate I guess my issue is, were at 62 years and counting now (per sedes) so I don't see how the sede argument seems to be "well Francis isn't the Pope, but also, the True Church has no way of giving itself a pope." 

    I guess the issue is further complicated if you take an SSPV style opinionism, in which case, most True Catholics do think Francis is the Pope, even if some of the SSPV priests think he isn't.  That makes things even more complex and weird.


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #5 on: September 08, 2020, 06:19:31 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is it an absolute requirement that the Pope be a Bishop of Rome?

    And would he have to have a "Preexisting" connection to the diocese?

    I know there were a couple of "competing papal claimants" in history, but I forget if the true Pope was always in Rome or not.

    At any rate I guess my issue is, were at 62 years and counting now (per sedes) so I don't see how the sede argument seems to be "well Francis isn't the Pope, but also, the True Church has no way of giving itself a pope."

    I guess the issue is further complicated if you take an SSPV style opinionism, in which case, most True Catholics do think Francis is the Pope, even if some of the SSPV priests think he isn't.  That makes things even more complex and weird.

    All good questions, and I don't have a single answer to any of them.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46394
    • Reputation: +27303/-5043
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #6 on: September 08, 2020, 06:30:29 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well the Great Western Schism is different.  We knew with certainty *one* of those three guys are pope.  Maybe not which one.  But we know one of them is.  

    Not necessarily.  That was cleared up later by the Church, of course, but it would have been theoretically possible that none of them had been legitimate ... for different reasons.  Evidently the group that elected the first anti-Pope felt that the original election had been illegitimate.

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1941
    • Reputation: +516/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #7 on: September 08, 2020, 06:36:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not necessarily.  That was cleared up later by the Church, of course, but it would have been theoretically possible that none of them had been legitimate ... for different reasons.  Evidently the group that elected the first anti-Pope felt that the original election had been illegitimate.
    OK so I guess if they had all been legitimate, but people all thought one of the three was legitimate, that would be a good excuse.

    But the minute people became convinced none of them were legitimate, it would seem to make sense to elect another pope.

    in this case there's no (serious) rival claimant.  Sedevacantists generally (I'm aware there are nuances) think that Francis is not the Pope of Rome, and furthermore, that at least most of those who accept him as such aren't true Catholics.  So what's stopping them from holding a conclave and producing a Pope?


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46394
    • Reputation: +27303/-5043
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #8 on: September 08, 2020, 06:36:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In theory, there's nothing preventing it.  Bellarmine addresses a scenario where all the Cardinals would be killed.  He simply states the principle that the Church has the power by Divine Law to select a Pope, and that the institution of Cardinals is man-made.  He stated that if the Cardinals would die, then the authority would be upon the clergy of Rome, but if they had died too, then an Imperfect Council could elect a pope.

    Problem is that there also has to be Universal Acceptance that the process is legit.  If 10 sedevacantists got together here, and 20 over there, and no one agreed, then there's nothing that constitutes a selection of a leader by THE CHURCH ... just little groups.  And even if all the sedevacantists got together and elected someone, then you have the sedeprivationists who would not accept it, nor the R&R, nor those Catholics who remained in the Novus Ordo.  So, given the fragmentation of this crisis, it's a practical impossibility that such an election would be legitimate (assuming, for the sake or argument, that the See IS in fact vacant ... since, if is not, then the answer is clear).

    So that's why Bellarmine stated that the authority would devolve in the last resort to an Imperfect Council ... because there has to be SOME notion of universality and Universal Acceptance of the process and its results.

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1941
    • Reputation: +516/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #9 on: September 08, 2020, 06:40:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In theory, there's nothing preventing it.  Bellarmine addresses a scenario where all the Cardinals would be killed.  He simply states the principle that the Church has the power by Divine Law to select a Pope, and that the institution of Cardinals is man-made.  He stated that if the Cardinals would die, then the authority would be upon the clergy of Rome, but if they had died too, then an Imperfect Council could elect a pope.

    Problem is that there also has to be Universal Acceptance that the process is legit.  If 10 sedevacantists got together here, and 20 over there, and no one agreed, then there's nothing that constitutes a selection of a leader by THE CHURCH ... just little groups.  And even if all the sedevacantists got together and elected someone, then you have the sedeprivationists who would not accept it, nor the R&R, nor those Catholics who remained in the Novus Ordo.  So, given the fragmentation of this crisis, it's a practical impossibility that such an election would be legitimate (assuming, for the sake or argument, that the See IS in fact vacant ... since, if is not, then the answer is clear).

    So that's why Bellarmine stated that the authority would devolve in the last resort to an Imperfect Council ... because there has to be SOME notion of universality and Universal Acceptance of the process and its results.
    I was assuming that the See was vacant for the sake of argument.  Obviously if Francis is in fact the Pope, than you couldn't elect a different pope.  I'm curious as to your thoughts on why I said I think sedeprivationism is a cop out in the OP.  Does a Pope need universal acceptance to actually be a Pope?  Like take for the sake of argument say the See was vacant, and the Sedes did all somehow band together and elect a Pope.  Presumably those who still believed Francis was the Pope would be in good faith and excused, but that wouldn't mean Pope Sanborn or whoever isn't in fact Pope, would it?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46394
    • Reputation: +27303/-5043
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #10 on: September 08, 2020, 06:41:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • When some sedevacantist groups have gone off and elected popes, it had to be with the at-least-implicit notion that they were the only Catholics left, that those who didn't agree with their election were no longer Catholics, and that certainly those who were not sedevacantists were not Catholics.  Thereby, in eliminating all these people from the Church, there would remain a "universality" among the Church, since the Church would effectively be reduced to those who accepted the "Pope".  So it ends up being a bit of a tautology, and the corollary of conclavism is the notion that they who elected the Pope are in fact all that remains of the Church.


    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1941
    • Reputation: +516/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #11 on: September 08, 2020, 06:55:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • When some sedevacantist groups have gone off and elected popes, it had to be with the at-least-implicit notion that they were the only Catholics left, that those who didn't agree with their election were no longer Catholics, and that certainly those who were not sedevacantists were not Catholics.  Thereby, in eliminating all these people from the Church, there would remain a "universality" among the Church, since the Church would effectively be reduced to those who accepted the "Pope".  So it ends up being a bit of a tautology, and the corollary of conclavism is the notion that they who elected the Pope are in fact all that remains of the Church.
    I get that all these conclave groups are illegitimate, because they don't *even* entail a unity of those who do not think Francis is the Pope.  That the Sedevacantists still cannot gather together and elect in unison a new pope, heavily inclines me to believe that the real reason that they can't is because we have a Pope, just a very bad one.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46394
    • Reputation: +27303/-5043
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #12 on: September 08, 2020, 06:56:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I was assuming that the See was vacant for the sake of argument.  Obviously if Francis is in fact the Pope, than you couldn't elect a different pope.  I'm curious as to your thoughts on why I said I think sedeprivationism is a cop out in the OP.  Does a Pope need universal acceptance to actually be a Pope?  Like take for the sake of argument say the See was vacant, and the Sedes did all somehow band together and elect a Pope.  Presumably those who still believed Francis was the Pope would be in good faith and excused, but that wouldn't mean Pope Sanborn or whoever isn't in fact Pope, would it?

    Right, I figured that you accepted a vacant see of the sake of argument, but I just wanted to make it explicit here.

    I do not believe that a Pope needs Universal Acceptance to be the legitimate Pope.  It's universally agreed that the minute that a Pope accepts the election, he becomes the legitimate pope.  This is before any news of the election results have spread outside the walls of the Conclave.  Also, it's clear that one of the Popes in the Great Western Schism WAS in fact the legitimate Pope despite the lack of universal acceptance.  There was also the case of a Pope who was taken into exile, and while he was in exile, a new Pope was elected and Universally Accepted.  That second one could not have been legitimate, because no human power can strip the papacy from a man once God has bestowed the authority of the papacy on him.

    That is of course what I believe happened in 1958.  Upon accepting the election (and taking the papal name), Cardinal Siri became the the legitimate Pope.  But then a faction of Cardinals threatened him, and he stepped down.  Such a resignation under grave duress is considered invalid.  So they then elected Roncalli, who could not be the legitimate Pope since the occupation of the See was impeded by the prior legitimate election of Cardinal Siri.  And then the enemies of the Church perpetrated this enormous fraud upon the faithful.  [Universal Acceptance theorists believe that he would have been con-validated, but, as I stated earlier, I disagree with that principle, since no natural means can strip a living and sane man of papal authority once it has been conferred by God.]

    It has to be that, in a sedevacante period, the TERMS of the election have to be agreed upon in principle by a moral unanimity of the Church.  Once you have lost the legal structures (the Cardinals or the Roman clergy), which everyone would have agreed upon as legitimate in principle, then the Church must agree with a moral unanimity about the terms of the election.  If significant numbers of Catholics did not agree that the conclave was legitimate, then it would in fact not be legitimate, lacking Universality.  What makes an election by Cardinals pretty much automatic is that the Church universally agreed that it was the legitimate mechanism for the election of a Pope.  Absent such universally-accepted mechanism, the lack of unanimity in any alternative mechanism would be fatal to its ability to elect a Pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46394
    • Reputation: +27303/-5043
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #13 on: September 08, 2020, 06:58:38 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I get that all these conclave groups are illegitimate, because they don't *even* entail a unity of those who do not think Francis is the Pope.  That the Sedevacantists still cannot gather together and elect in unison a new pope, heavily inclines me to believe that the real reason that they can't is because we have a Pope, just a very bad one.

    Perhaps, but while all the sedevacantists agree that the Holy See is vacant, they do not always see eye to eye about the particulars, the practical application of theory.  Even among those who believe that the See is formally vacant, there are some, like the sedevacantists, who believe that Cajetan had a point against Bellarmine in arguing that some measure of authority is required to vacate the See.  Recall that Bellarmine listed FIVE different opinions about what would happen to a heretical pope.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #14 on: September 08, 2020, 07:49:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In theory, there's nothing preventing it.  Bellarmine addresses a scenario where all the Cardinals would be killed.  He simply states the principle that the Church has the power by Divine Law to select a Pope, and that the institution of Cardinals is man-made.  He stated that if the Cardinals would die, then the authority would be upon the clergy of Rome, but if they had died too, then an Imperfect Council could elect a pope.

    I guess this is just one possible answer regarding how R&R is not inconsistent to doubt the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration, yet accept BXVI was pope (i.e., despite being consecrated bishop according to the new rite).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."